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  #1  
Old Dec 25, '11, 4:34 pm
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SeanF1989 SeanF1989 is offline
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Question Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

I was on the site Yahoo Answers and there are many questions asking "why do Christians support capital punishment?" and "why do Christians support the 2nd amendment?"

What does the Church say about capital punishment?

Is it a sin to shoot somebody who breaks into your home for self defence or to protect your family?
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  #2  
Old Dec 25, '11, 4:46 pm
rdscheirer rdscheirer is offline
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Default Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

If you ever watch EWTN televsion they have several Jewish Rabbis who are guest commentators who say the commandment says "do not murder" instead of our translation " do not kill". I think that Catholics would agree that it is OK to protect yourself and your family from a hostile intruder.
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  #3  
Old Dec 25, '11, 5:05 pm
Sacred_Heart Sacred_Heart is offline
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Default Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

I would follow by example. Priests are the perfect role models for examples. Priests don't carry guns in the first place.

You can't forget Jesus either. He said not to resist evil and to turn the other cheek.

You can use self defense to protect yourself or you can become a martyr for Christ and his teaching.
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  #4  
Old Dec 25, '11, 5:09 pm
Birdpreacher Birdpreacher is offline
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Default Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

Curious:

1) If I see a man about to kill a baby I can use force against him to save to baby's life.

2) If I walk into an abortion clinic and use force against the Doctor its a sin?

/no way am I advocating violence I am just curious as to why we treat the baby different then the fetus in this situation.
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  #5  
Old Dec 25, '11, 5:16 pm
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Chaplain777 Chaplain777 is offline
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Default Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacred_Heart View Post
I would follow by example. Priests are the perfect role models for examples. Priests don't carry guns in the first place.

You can't forget Jesus either. He said not to resist evil and to turn the other cheek.

You can use self defense to protect yourself or you can become a martyr for Christ and his teaching.
Evil flourishes when good men do nothing.
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  #6  
Old Dec 25, '11, 5:33 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanF1989 View Post
I was on the site Yahoo Answers and there are many questions asking "why do Christians support capital punishment?" and "why do Christians support the 2nd amendment?"

What does the Church say about capital punishment?

Is it a sin to shoot somebody who breaks into your home for self defence or to protect your family?
On self defense and defense of others the Church teaches:

CCC 2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."

CCC 2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

CCC 2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.


With regard to capital punishment Catholics are free to support it or be against it. The Church does not support it but accepts it may sometimes be necessary although such times should be almost non-existent. Church teaching:


CCC 2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."
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  #7  
Old Dec 25, '11, 5:44 pm
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SeanF1989 SeanF1989 is offline
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Question Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

Quote:
Originally Posted by thistle View Post
On self defense and defense of others the Church teaches:

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility."
Does that include parents defending the lives of their child(ren)?
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  #8  
Old Dec 25, '11, 7:23 pm
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triumphguy triumphguy is offline
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Default Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

Is it OK for a Catholic to say "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six"?
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  #9  
Old Dec 25, '11, 9:45 pm
GEddie GEddie is offline
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Default Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

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Originally Posted by triumphguy View Post
Is it OK for a Catholic to say "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six"?
Sure he can say that.

But he ought also not kvetch if the 12 then send him for a stretch in the Graybar Hotel, either.

One thing we give up to live in society is the right to be judge, jury and executioner.

ICXC NIKA
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  #10  
Old Dec 25, '11, 9:49 pm
GEddie GEddie is offline
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Default Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacred_Heart View Post
I would follow by example. Priests are the perfect role models for examples. Priests don't carry guns in the first place.

You can't forget Jesus either. He said not to resist evil and to turn the other cheek.

You can use self defense to protect yourself or you can become a martyr for Christ and his teaching.
Priests do not normally carry guns, but they are definitely not all opposed to it, either.

A priest I generally much admire has expressed support for the 2md Amendment and the armed society.

ICXC NIKA.
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  #11  
Old Dec 25, '11, 9:59 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

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Originally Posted by SeanF1989 View Post
Does that include parents defending the lives of their child(ren)?
Of course. If someone breaks into your home and, for example, has a knife and is threatening to kill your children you have the right to defend them even if it means killing that person. Sometimes fatal force is the minimum force required to stop the threat.
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  #12  
Old Dec 26, '11, 4:49 pm
lucky4075 lucky4075 is offline
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Default Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacred_Heart View Post
I would follow by example. Priests are the perfect role models for examples. Priests don't carry guns in the first place.

You can't forget Jesus either. He said not to resist evil and to turn the other cheek.

You can use self defense to protect yourself or you can become a martyr for Christ and his teaching.
Those quotes are out of context- the Lord was talking about not holding vengeance/grudges towards those who insult or wrong you, not somebody trying to kill you or someone else.

"Thinkest thou that I cannot ask my Father, and he will give me presently more than twelve legions of angels?"- Mark 26:53. Jesus freely died and didnt defend himself because His mission here on earth was to die for our sins and reconcile us with God. If Jesus didn't for some reason need to die, what do you think those angels would have done to those guards that came to round Him and the Apostles up? I dont think they would have just stood there and smiled.

IMHO, and its just that- an opinion, pacifism isnt right. there is no justice in allowing murder or other serious crimes. Your life was given to you as a gift from God, not protecting it is more or less suicide, which is a grave sin. "peace and justice are two sides of the same coin."

The thing I have wondered about, and it would be awesome if someone could answer it for me is how concerned should you be with the other persons( the person attacking you) soul? I realize that they are a son/daughter of God as well but what if they aren't a believer? I think I might feel guilty if they went to hell because I defended myself or someone else, but just standing there and doing nothing seems wrong to me.
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  #13  
Old Dec 28, '11, 2:51 am
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Bix Bix is offline
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Default Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

My replies may come across more harsh than intended. They aren't meant that way..

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky4075 View Post

"Thinkest thou that I cannot ask my Father, and he will give me presently more than twelve legions of angels?"- Mark 26:53. Jesus freely died and didnt defend himself because His mission here on earth was to die for our sins and reconcile us with God. If Jesus didn't for some reason need to die, what do you think those angels would have done to those guards that came to round Him and the Apostles up? I dont think they would have just stood there and smiled.
I don't believe when the Church listed CCC 2263-2266 they were referring to Jesus...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucky4075 View Post
The thing I have wondered about, and it would be awesome if someone could answer it for me is how concerned should you be with the other persons( the person attacking you) soul? I realize that they are a son/daughter of God as well but what if they aren't a believer? I think I might feel guilty if they went to hell because I defended myself or someone else, but just standing there and doing nothing seems wrong to me.

In all due respect, have you personally (or your spouse, significant other, spouse, parent, or child)ever been attacked? One hopes the defense doesn't result in death, but if it did I'm fairly certain I would thank God for saving and then pray for their soul... If you're asking would you stop to think about this beforehand, there would not be time....
Simple as that.
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  #14  
Old Dec 28, '11, 5:29 am
GEddie GEddie is offline
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Default Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

If there were no requirement for our LORD to die, there would have been no need for the legions of angels, as HE would never have approached a death situation.

His whole life was designed around the Passion, something that would not have happened, if there were no reason for it.

ICXC NIKA
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  #15  
Old Dec 28, '11, 6:52 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: Killing in self defence or to protect others and Capital Punishment

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Originally Posted by Sacred_Heart View Post
I would follow by example. Priests are the perfect role models for examples. Priests don't carry guns in the first place.
I know priest who have guns for hunting. they are not anti-gun. I don't know if they would use the gun to protect themselves but i think they might.
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