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  #1  
Old Dec 26, '11, 7:52 pm
Starcrash Starcrash is offline
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Default Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

If I asked those of you who read your bible "when did Jesus run the money-changers out of the temple in Jerusalem?", you'd probably answer "on the day of his triumphal entry". And both Matthew and Luke would agree with you. But why does Mark say that it happened the next day? Did they not learn their lesson from the previous day's rout?

And more importantly, why does the writer of John believe this happened the same day as Jesus' first miracle at the wedding in Cana?
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Old Dec 26, '11, 8:12 pm
Gorgias Gorgias is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

I think I would say that Matthew and Luke don't specify when it occurs, but Mark does.
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Old Dec 26, '11, 8:23 pm
Starcrash Starcrash is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

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I think I would say that Matthew and Luke don't specify when it occurs, but Mark does.
You could make this case for Luke, but Matthew isn't so unclear. If you continue reading a little beyond the passage I cited, you'll find Jesus cursing the fig tree, which Mark also noted as the start of the next day.
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Old Dec 26, '11, 8:26 pm
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

I think that it happened both at the beginning of His ministry (per John's Gospel) and at the end (per the Synoptics). As pointed out, neither Matthew or Luke point out that it happened on the same day as His entrance into Jerusalem or the next.

If it was two separate incidences, it doesn't seem like the one in John's Gospel was quite as disrupting as the one in the Synoptics.
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Old Dec 26, '11, 8:37 pm
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

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You could make this case for Luke, but Matthew isn't so unclear. If you continue reading a little beyond the passage I cited, you'll find Jesus cursing the fig tree, which Mark also noted as the start of the next day.
Mark and Matthew treat the fig tree a little differently as well. Matthew sees Jesus handling the fig tree all in the same day, even at the same moment, wouldn't you say?

I've heard that Mark uses the fig tree as a "sandwich event", with the Temple sandwiched between the two-part story of the fig tree. Jesus begins the sandwich by finding the fig tree with no fruit. Then in the middle of the sandwich, Jesus judges the Temple and finds no fruit there as well. At the end of the sandwich, Jesus comes up to the fig tree and it is withered away.

The "impact" of the sandwich is that the fig tree is a "type" of the Temple. Its found lacking and fruit, is condemned, and will wither away into nothingness... just as the Temple will.

This sandwich technique was a common rabbinic practice in ancient Israel, from what I understand.
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Old Dec 26, '11, 8:40 pm
Starcrash Starcrash is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

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Originally Posted by NotWorthy View Post
I think that it happened both at the beginning of His ministry (per John's Gospel) and at the end (per the Synoptics). As pointed out, neither Matthew or Luke point out that it happened on the same day as His entrance into Jerusalem or the next.

If it was two separate incidences, it doesn't seem like the one in John's Gospel was quite as disrupting as the one in the Synoptics.
You seem to be making a case for reasonable doubt. Sure, it could've been two events (as per what I named the thread). But isn't it telling that John, despite also mentioning Jesus' triumphal entry, is the only gospel that doesn't tell of it happening in this week? It's obvious to me why this is, but you can stretch credibility if you really need these events to both be completely accurate.
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Old Dec 26, '11, 8:42 pm
Starcrash Starcrash is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

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Originally Posted by NotWorthy View Post
Mark and Matthew treat the fig tree a little differently as well. Matthew sees Jesus handling the fig tree all in the same day, even at the same moment, wouldn't you say?

I've heard that Mark uses the fig tree as a "sandwich event", with the Temple sandwiched between the two-part story of the fig tree. Jesus begins the sandwich by finding the fig tree with no fruit. Then in the middle of the sandwich, Jesus judges the Temple and finds no fruit there as well. At the end of the sandwich, Jesus comes up to the fig tree and it is withered away.

The "impact" of the sandwich is that the fig tree is a "type" of the Temple. Its found lacking and fruit, is condemned, and will wither away into nothingness... just as the Temple will.

This sandwich technique was a common rabbinic practice in ancient Israel, from what I understand.
It's not vital when this tree withers away (although there is another contradiction to be found in exactly when this happens, too, "presently" or "the next morning"). I would draw your attention to Jesus' stay in Bethany, which does not appear to be metaphorical. Mentioning the fig tree is merely the best way to frame this passage.
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Old Dec 26, '11, 8:45 pm
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

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Originally Posted by Starcrash View Post
You seem to be making a case for reasonable doubt. Sure, it could've been two events (as per what I named the thread). But isn't it telling that John, despite also mentioning Jesus' triumphal entry, is the only gospel that doesn't tell of it happening in this week? It's obvious to me why this is, but you can stretch credibility if you really need these events to both be completely accurate.
Hmmm, no I don't see what is obvious on why John doesn't tell of the event. John doesn't focus on many of the events of the Synoptics. It seems that, being written 20 or so years after the other 3, John seems to think that the common story of Jesus is already well known, so he doesn't focus on re-hashing what is already known.

But I'm interested in your theory.
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Old Dec 26, '11, 8:51 pm
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

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It's not vital when this tree withers away (although there is another contradiction to be found in exactly when this happens, too, "presently" or "the next morning"). I would draw your attention to Jesus' stay in Bethany, which does not appear to be metaphorical. Mentioning the fig tree is merely the best way to frame this passage.
I wouldn't claim that Jesus' stay in Bethany was metaphorical.

I also don't see any reason why the Gospel's contradictions in timing are anything to worry about. I don't recall anyone claiming that they were meant to be a historical log of Jesus' coming and goings.
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Old Dec 26, '11, 8:51 pm
Starcrash Starcrash is offline
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

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Hmmm, no I don't see what is obvious on why John doesn't tell of the event. John doesn't focus on many of the events of the Synoptics. It seems that, being written 20 or so years after the other 3, John seems to think that the common story of Jesus is already well known, so he doesn't focus on re-hashing what is already known.

But I'm interested in your theory.
The story of Jesus driving the money-changers out of the temple was too well-known for being told (despite his telling it once in chapter 2) but the story of his triumphal entry was not? What new information, exactly, did he bring to the table on this event?
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Old Dec 26, '11, 8:54 pm
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

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... Mentioning the fig tree is merely the best way to frame this passage.
How can you say that? If its the best way to frame the passage, then why didn't the other authors use it?

You seem to be simply ignoring a technique that Mark uses numerous times in his Gospel... and it would seem like you are doing this because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion.
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Old Dec 26, '11, 8:55 pm
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

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I wouldn't claim that Jesus' stay in Bethany was metaphorical.

I also don't see any reason why the Gospel's contradictions in timing are anything to worry about. I don't recall anyone claiming that they were meant to be a historical log of Jesus' coming and goings.
Now you're going from "it's probably not a contradiction" to "who cares if it's a contradiction?"

It's not about "worrying". There's a very common claim made that the scripture is infallible and true. If a person (like myself) wanted to prove that this was not the case, this is how such a person would do it. Are you seriously confused about why this would matter, or are you just trivializing it so you can rationalize the bible containing a contradiction and still believe it entirely?

So yes, I would say that many claim that they were meant to be "historical", or to remove your semantics, true and accurate.
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Old Dec 26, '11, 9:02 pm
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

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The story of Jesus driving the money-changers out of the temple was too well-known for being told (despite his telling it once in chapter 2) but the story of his triumphal entry was not? What new information, exactly, did he bring to the table on this event?
I don't know, I can't be sure. But I do notice that John is the first one to specifically mention palms and notes this was a fulfillment of the Scriptures.

John also mentions that the disciples didn't recognize this as a prophecy about Jesus until after His death.

I'm not sure about the significance of this, however.
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Old Dec 26, '11, 9:07 pm
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

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Now you're going from "it's probably not a contradiction" to "who cares if it's a contradiction?"
No, I'm saying that nobody claims that the synoptics are written in chronological order. So when people come in and question the alleged contradictions, they are merely setting up a straw man. So, what is a contradiction to you, is not a contradiction to me.

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Originally Posted by Starcrash View Post
It's not about "worrying". There's a very common claim made that the scripture is infallible and true. If a person (like myself) wanted to prove that this was not the case, this is how such a person would do it. Are you seriously confused about why this would matter, or are you just trivializing it so you can rationalize the bible containing a contradiction and still believe it entirely?
No, I'm merely illuminating that you are setting up a straw man so that you can knock it down. The ancient Jews did not play by the same rule book that you are trying to establish.

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So yes, I would say that many claim that they were meant to be "historical", or to remove your semantics, true and accurate.
historical is a good phrase to claim of the Gospels... I mis-spoke. I meant to clarify my statement that they are not meant to be chronological.

My bad.
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Old Dec 26, '11, 9:18 pm
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Default Re: Did Jesus Beat the Money-Changers Twice?

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Now you're going from "it's probably not a contradiction" to "who cares if it's a contradiction?"

It's not about "worrying". There's a very common claim made that the scripture is infallible and true. If a person (like myself) wanted to prove that this was not the case, this is how such a person would do it. Are you seriously confused about why this would matter, or are you just trivializing it so you can rationalize the bible containing a contradiction and still believe it entirely?

So yes, I would say that many claim that they were meant to be "historical", or to remove your semantics, true and accurate.
I think you are confusing us with some evangelical groups. We do believe the bible to be infallible and true, however you seem to mean this word in a way very different then the Church does. John more then all the other gospels is focused on the spiritual meaning of the events more then the events themselves, so I think he changes the order around.

If you want to find a problem with the Bible, I think you will do better with the fact that the rule of King Herod and the rule of Caesar Augustus seem to be mutually exclusive.

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