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View Poll Results: Are you a Traditionalist?
Sedevacantism all the way, JP2 isn't the Pope! 0 0%
Proud supporter of the SSPX 10 3.09%
Yes, the Church took a wrong turn at Vatican II 53 16.36%
Yes and I love the Pope and am not a schismatic 148 45.68%
I have sympathies for the Latin Mass and Traditionalists 102 31.48%
No, but Traditionalism is ok in some forms. 70 21.60%
Definitely NOT! They are schismatics and integrists!!! 21 6.48%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 324. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old Aug 16, '04, 1:40 am
The Dead Bishop The Dead Bishop is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

I am , by God's Grace, SSPX, but my " answer " in all honesty had to be " I love the Pope and I'm not schismatic." I believe, eventually, Rome's " mind " will clear and She will get Her "spiritual eyes" back, and will lift all sanctions against SSPX.
  #62  
Old Aug 16, '04, 1:42 am
The Dead Bishop The Dead Bishop is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catholic Eagle
The Pope should of taken the Koran. Spit on it and ripped it apart. This is my opinion.
Faith, Hope and Charity....and the greatest of these is Charity.Peace be to you, C.E.
  #63  
Old Aug 16, '04, 3:59 am
mjdonnelly mjdonnelly is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iohannes
The english vernacular stinks, they did not even translated it correctly.
Do the mass using original Greek then? I'm sure there were mistranslations in making up the Latin version.
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  #64  
Old Aug 16, '04, 10:06 pm
deogratias deogratias is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

I think I asked you this before but you did not answer.


Since there is a valid and licit TLM in Seattle why do you go to SSPX?
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A good end does not make right an action which in itself is wrong - DECLARATION ON THE PRODUCTION AND THE SCIENTIFIC AND THERAPEUTIC USE OF HUMAN EMBRYONIC STEM CELLS



  #65  
Old Aug 17, '04, 5:30 am
Guy Guy is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

I do not consider myself a traditionalist, but I do consider myself orthodox. I love JP2. I have fallen in love with the Catholic Church over the last 10 years. I am excited to see traditional devotions returning to Catholic practice sush as Eucharistic adoration, the scapular, and sisters wearing the habit (this is found among young Catholics!!!!).
I am in the deacon formation program in our diocese. Sometimes I think I am the only on in my classes who is excited about this new zeal and reurn to orthodoxy.
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Pax et Caritas

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Tawas Twp, Michigan, in the Huron National Forest, near Lake Huron.
  #66  
Old Aug 17, '04, 2:46 pm
deogratias deogratias is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

Guy - because installed Deacons without being a step towards the priesthood was not the "old way", some may feel threatened - but I don't think "going back" in every area is the answer but restoring what was good and beautiful, including reforming the liturgy and allowing the TLM in the interim.


Often you have heard the expression regarding Vatican II that they threw the baby out with the bathwater. Well we still need to dispose of that bathwater but bring back the baby
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A good end does not make right an action which in itself is wrong - DECLARATION ON THE PRODUCTION AND THE SCIENTIFIC AND THERAPEUTIC USE OF HUMAN EMBRYONIC STEM CELLS



  #67  
Old Aug 17, '04, 2:56 pm
Guy Guy is offline
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Smile Re: Traditionalist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deogratias
Guy - because installed Deacons without being a step towards the priesthood was not the "old way", some may feel threatened - but I don't think "going back" in every area is the answer but restoring what was good and beautiful, including reforming the liturgy and allowing the TLM in the interim.


Often you have heard the expression regarding Vatican II that they threw the baby out with the bathwater. Well we still need to dispose of that bathwater but bring back the baby
Excellent answer

Thanks
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Pax et Caritas

Guy J. Rabey
Tawas Twp, Michigan, in the Huron National Forest, near Lake Huron.
  #68  
Old Aug 18, '04, 12:13 pm
Exporter Exporter is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

I know God understands German, Japanese, Spanish, English and He understands Latin too. He understands wordless groanings of our heart.

I didn't like it in the early 70s when I first heard the Mass in English. Today, I STILL DO NOT LIKE THE MASS SAID IN ENGLISH! I want the Tridentine Mass again.

The Bishops misunderstood Vatican II, they went overboard in allowing "changes". The Pope didnt say for all the Masses to be said in the vernacular. No, he said if the occasion called for the vernacular then say the mass in the common language.

What's the result of this change? The Mass has become a mirror of the Protestant worship except we STILL have the Eucharist! With all the singing and loss of the mystery we used to have, we have lost the people's respect for what the Mass really is. I sound like a old wet towel, huh? But am I correct?
  #69  
Old Aug 18, '04, 12:41 pm
Jason Hurd Jason Hurd is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exporter

What's the result of this change? The Mass has become a mirror of the Protestant worship except we STILL have the Eucharist! With all the singing and loss of the mystery we used to have, we have lost the people's respect for what the Mass really is. I sound like a old wet towel, huh? But am I correct?
Well, since you ask, no, you are not correct. You have allowed your fervent desire for the way things used to be to lead you into sweeping generalisations, which are never a good idea. I for one have the profoundest love and respect for what the Mass is, and can say I have never encountered another Catholic in my parish who lacks this respect. You do sound like an old wet towel, and I would suggest, as another poster has already done, that a little more prayer and a little less complaining would go far toward correcting the abuses under which we currently suffer.
  #70  
Old Aug 18, '04, 4:40 pm
Exalt Exalt is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

I answered: No, but Traditionalism is ok in some forms.
My position is this:

When you boil everything down, the purpose of the Mass is for Catholic to become closer to God. The Eucharist is front and center and the primary source of God's grace, of course. However, there things about the mass that are intended to uplift one's soul to the Eucharist and (therefore) God: the Church design, the readings, music, homilies, language, prayer, etc.


Different people become closer to God through different styles of these central elements. For some, praise and worship music does wonders. For others, traditional latin style prayer does the trick.

Of note: Orthodoxy is absolutely essential for worship. Total submission to Church teaching and the authority of the Bishops and the Pope are absolutely essential. Bad theology in music, or disobeying the Bishops' commands, or homilies that don't preach Church teaching have the potential to destroy spiritual lives. However, orthodoxy does NOT neccessarily mean quiet music with a cantor and organ in a mass said in Latin. Nor does it neccessarily mean upbeat music with drums and a guitar! These are preferences, not orthodoxy.

The point is that a good Parish includes having different worship styles for those who are positively affected by them, all the while maintaining true orthodoxy.

This is why I think that latin masses should be accessible to all, but so should Praise and Worship masses.
  #71  
Old Aug 18, '04, 6:30 pm
deogratias deogratias is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

Quote:

Different people become closer to God through different styles of these central elements. For some, praise and worship music does wonders. For others, traditional latin style prayer does the trick
I agree so long as all forms are in keeping with the liturgical books which govern them.
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A good end does not make right an action which in itself is wrong - DECLARATION ON THE PRODUCTION AND THE SCIENTIFIC AND THERAPEUTIC USE OF HUMAN EMBRYONIC STEM CELLS



  #72  
Old Aug 18, '04, 7:54 pm
Agomemnon Agomemnon is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exporter
I know God understands German, Japanese, Spanish, English and He understands Latin too. He understands wordless groanings of our heart.

I didn't like it in the early 70s when I first heard the Mass in English. Today, I STILL DO NOT LIKE THE MASS SAID IN ENGLISH! I want the Tridentine Mass again.

The Bishops misunderstood Vatican II, they went overboard in allowing "changes". The Pope didnt say for all the Masses to be said in the vernacular. No, he said if the occasion called for the vernacular then say the mass in the common language.

What's the result of this change? The Mass has become a mirror of the Protestant worship except we STILL have the Eucharist! With all the singing and loss of the mystery we used to have, we have lost the people's respect for what the Mass really is. I sound like a old wet towel, huh? But am I correct?

I was born in 1970 and have grown up only the the post V2 liturgy and USA. And let me tell you...ITS NOT GOOD.

The amount of unauthorized changes, abuse, (can we say in some places outright heresy), dissent, institutionalized irreverence is just ridiculous. Will anything be left for my children??? If the angry followers of V2 were actually reading the documents than the Tridentine Liturgy would not have dissappeared. Perhaps they knew what they proposed was severely lacking

Restore the Old Mass. End the abuse. Excommunicate the heretics and return to orthodoxy.
  #73  
Old Aug 18, '04, 8:43 pm
Exalt Exalt is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agomemnon
I was born in 1970 and have grown up only the the post V2 liturgy and USA. And let me tell you...ITS NOT GOOD.

The amount of unauthorized changes, abuse, (can we say in some places outright heresy), dissent, institutionalized irreverence is just ridiculous. Will anything be left for my children??? If the angry followers of V2 were actually reading the documents than the Tridentine Liturgy would not have dissappeared. Perhaps they knew what they proposed was severely lacking

Restore the Old Mass. End the abuse. Excommunicate the heretics and return to orthodoxy.
What makes you think that a return to the Latin-traditional style mass will end the abuses? It will simply change the rules and become an occasion for other abuses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exporter
What's the result of this change? The Mass has become a mirror of the Protestant worship except we STILL have the Eucharist! With all the singing and loss of the mystery we used to have, we have lost the people's respect for what the Mass really is.
The purpose of worship is to move closer to God. Every Christian church has this goal. However, unlike our Protestant brethern, the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith. Other things included (like readings, homilies, prayers, and music) are intended to lift our souls to be ready to accept this gift and become closer to God (and further submit ourselves to God's will). I don't believe it is a failing of the mass, per se, for most parishes, but a failing of good faith formation and religious education. Many catholics don't truly understand the simple truth that the Eucharist IS the Body and Blood of our Lord (spiritually, emotionally, or mentally). The problem isn't the music or the language or the priest facing towards the congregation. The problem is our congregation's understanding of what the purpose of the mass is. While the mass itself can be a catechetical tool at times, faith formation outside of mass is absolutely critical.

What you don't like are the liturgical abuses and unorthodox catholic lay persons and priests. Bringing back the old style mass isn't going to help that. Rather, a deeper solution is needed: better faith formation.

I commend Catholic Answers for thier work. However, as Karl said (or was it Jimmy?) on one of the radio shows, if our parishes were doing thier jobs, we wouldn't need Catholic Answers, and Karl and Jimmy would be out of a job.
  #74  
Old Aug 19, '04, 3:16 am
asquared asquared is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

I am for tradition if it means enshrining my tradition, and restoring everything to the way it was done at my home parish when I was in second grade. No one else's tradition or memory of course has any value. I support the pope and bishop totally, until he says or does something I disagree with, then I am free to dissent. Of course when liberals do this they are heretics, when I do it I am orthodox.
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  #75  
Old Aug 19, '04, 7:21 am
Cherub Cherub is offline
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Default Re: Traditionalist?

Nobody seems to like the new Mass in English. Not me either! I would never dream of going to a schismatic Mass of any kind, only to straigh-up, Vatican approved Mass will I go -- but there is something holy, ancient, and pure that is just gone from the Church with this crazy, cheap plastic neon lit Mass in America. It almost seems sacrilegious, some of the ways I have seen, with terrible stomp and clap music, people behaving irreverently before the altar and carrying on like it is some variety show instead of Mass, well there are just too many things I have seen, too many places to even begin to name. Where is one who will champion the Church in America? What is the proper way to go about making our voices heard and begging to be restored to our ancient, beautiful Mass?
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