Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > In The News > World News
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #46  
Old Jan 14, '12, 4:00 pm
Tenofovir Tenofovir is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2010
Posts: 2,758
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Hmmm you may be right about the names but then I have to ponder this exception. The names such as Bill and Ted are not really diminutive as in showing endearment (as in Slavic) languages, but are shortened to be easier on the tongue and more homely implying a sense of intimacy, but not necessary positive child like emotion towards the subject. English has a habit of shortening everything - what with apostrophes 'n all.

I think there is a difference in that such would be considered unmanly in the Anglo-Saxon tradition but would not be considered unmanly in Slavic tradition, where hugging and kissing among men is not uncommon.

Then you should note that in Slavic languages nouns also get diminutive forms. You can have a little spring (because it's a small stream of water) and you can have a cute spring (because you're describing it to a child). In Dutch similar forms occur too, with additions of -tjie or -tie at the end of the noun.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old Jan 14, '12, 4:13 pm
karaleigh's Avatar
karaleigh karaleigh is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2011
Posts: 324
Religion: Catholic leaning towards Byzantine
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

I think 'Ms.' was started for divorced women to explain their professional status, as well as, an iconic symbol of her reasons to remain single. Wim's lib!

Maybe the term 'mademoiselle' is a suggestion that France no longer has any single women!
__________________
There is no greater love then to apply the love of God...for truly "God is Love." 1John.4:8
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old Jan 14, '12, 4:18 pm
LemonAndLime's Avatar
LemonAndLime LemonAndLime is offline
Regular Member
Prayer Warrior
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: September 18, 2010
Posts: 5,306
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_Lafrance View Post
From my experience, thinking isn't a strong word to use in context with feminists.
I know. I mean, what were they thinking when campaigning for the right to vote?

What are those Saudi woman thinking when they're campaigning to drive?

It's sad when feminist is considered a dirty word.
__________________
I'm female
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old Jan 14, '12, 4:24 pm
chevalier's Avatar
chevalier chevalier is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Posts: 10,926
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenofovir View Post
Hmmm you may be right about the names but then I have to ponder this exception. The names such as Bill and Ted are not really diminutive as in showing endearment (as in Slavic) languages, but are shortened to be easier on the tongue and more homely implying a sense of intimacy, but not necessary positive child like emotion towards the subject. English has a habit of shortening everything - what with apostrophes 'n all.
Well, there is that sense of intimacy as you say, which is very similar to a sense of endearment. As in Bill Clinton is closer to the voters than William Clinton (III or IV, especially) would be. English, especially American English, tends to invite this. Must be a cultural thing. Actually, when I render my name in English, I go for that version which could be (used as a) a diminution of the other available translation but is believed to be a full name in its own right. (Can't say more because I don't want to be identified.)

In Polish, we don't have many abbreviations. Some diminutions are noticeably shorter, so they can play the role. There was an abundance of both diminutions and abbreviations, as well as playful augmentations. Especially the knights and princes of old went by the latter. Nowadays, however, not really. I suspect this is different in other Slavic languages. I'm almost sure of that.

Quote:
I think there is a difference in that such would be considered unmanly in the Anglo-Saxon tradition but would not be considered unmanly in Slavic tradition, where hugging and kissing among men is not uncommon.
I'm pretty sure "Billy" and "Ronnie" aren't gay between the men of the South of the US, or at least haven't been until very recent years. New England probably not so much. In Polish, men are on a familiar footing will use diminutions and in some cases even new acquaintances, if the full name is particularly long or serious or unwieldy etc. However, they won't normally sign a letter or state their name using a diminution except between friends and then only the most serious or the longest of names. Very rarely those names which are diminuted by adding the standard endearing suffix (e.g. a Krzysztof will sign off as Krzysiek but a Jan won't really refer to himself as Janek unless he's young or being very warm with someone).

Quote:
Then you should note that in Slavic languages nouns also get diminutive forms. You can have a little spring (because it's a small stream of water) and you can have a cute spring (because you're describing it to a child). In Dutch similar forms occur too, with additions of -tjie or -tie at the end of the noun.
Nothing new to me. I'm a bit at a loss as to why you'd be telling me the above. Mind letting me in on it? Good example with the spring btw, just don't know where you're driving at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonAndLime View Post
It's sad when feminist is considered a dirty word.
Men tend to associate that word with more than just voting rights, equal pay and generally equal rights. I guess it has a scary ring to it. I swear by equal pay but I still feel a twinge of unease when I hear the word "feminist".
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old Jan 14, '12, 4:47 pm
Tenofovir Tenofovir is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2010
Posts: 2,758
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevalier View Post

In Polish, we don't have many abbreviations. Some diminutions are noticeably shorter, so they can play the role. There was an abundance of both diminutions and abbreviations, as well as playful augmentations. Especially the knights and princes of old went by the latter. Nowadays, however, not really. I suspect this is different in other Slavic languages. I'm almost sure of that.
Abbreviations in Polish? As in names? Not formally.

Quote:
Very rarely those names which are diminuted by adding the standard endearing suffix (e.g. a Krzysztof will sign off as Krzysiek but a Jan won't really refer to himself as Janek unless he's young or being very warm with someone).
Actually Janek is quite common in the countryside. Grown up guys will sign that way unless the document requires the full name by law.

Quote:
Nothing new to me. I'm a bit at a loss as to why you'd be telling me the above. Mind letting me in on it? Good example with the spring btw, just don't know where you're driving at.
It does not occur in English. I think it's pertinent and shows a different cultural approach to endearment. You can use a diminutive term to imply familiarity (your buddy from the pub) and you can use it to show that you care very deeply for the person (a boy relating to his sweetheart, mother to her young child). I think there is a difference between the two. Perhaps different forms occur in English as follows - Theodore, Ted (drinking buddy) and Teddy (what his mom called him when he was 5); then again there is also William, Bill and Billy. Hmmm....

Oh and it does also occur in Dutch.

Russian would be similar to Polish and they use diminutive language too. eg, Ivan=Vanya.

Re Mademoiselle, in PL it would be Panienka. This would be a young miss or mademoiselle I guess. An older gentleman or a young suitor would refer to a young woman that way.

Hmmm ok, ignore my ramblings, just thinking aloud.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old Jan 14, '12, 4:54 pm
Tenofovir Tenofovir is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2010
Posts: 2,758
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonAndLime View Post
I know. I mean, what were they thinking when campaigning for the right to vote?

What are those Saudi woman thinking when they're campaigning to drive?

It's sad when feminist is considered a dirty word.
Exactly. Instead of focusing on issues which really oppress women, they moan about things people have gotten over, long ago and see problems where there are none.

Feminists are criticised because of their irrational fanaticism. They don't stand up for equal pay and rights, but they insist on women being treated better than men. And many women of course want it both ways. They want to be weaker when its beneficial, and when its not they want to be more assertive then men. What is most distasteful however is their support of abortion and their disregard for their fellow women (half the aborted children). Of course in some ways they want to do away with sex-selective abortion by dictating morality to women, but only the type of morality which counts - feminist morality.

Oh well....
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old Jan 14, '12, 5:02 pm
chevalier's Avatar
chevalier chevalier is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Posts: 10,926
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenofovir View Post
Abbreviations in Polish? As in names? Not formally.
Yup. Neither abbreviations nor diminutions.

Quote:
Actually Janek is quite common in the countryside. Grown up guys will sign that way unless the document requires the full name by law.
To be honest, I don't know that much about the countryside but I believe they will only sign that way among family and perhaps some very close friends.

Quote:
It does not occur in English. I think it's pertinent and shows a different cultural approach to endearment. You can use a diminutive term to imply familiarity (your buddy from the pub) and you can use it to show that you care very deeply for the person (a boy relating to his sweetheart, mother to her young child). I think there is a difference between the two. Perhaps different forms occur in English as follows - Theodore, Ted (drinking buddy) and Teddy (what his mom called him when he was 5); then again there is also William, Bill and Billy. Hmmm....
I believe the abbreviations carry at least a hint of diminution. There is always an air of diminution to familiar names. After all, drinking buddies is not exactly a formal context, is it.

Quote:
Russian would be similar to Polish and they use diminutive language too. eg, Ivan=Vanya
The Russians used to use a lot of diminutions in the past. Not sure about now. I'd expect them to be more diminution-happy than Poles.

Quote:
Re Mademoiselle, in PL it would be Panienka. This would be a young miss or mademoiselle I guess. An older gentleman or a young suitor would refer to a young woman that way.
Depends. "Panienka" could be the most direct translation of "mademoiselle" because it is diminuted. However, the meaning of "mademoiselle" is that of "panna" (spinster; title given before a spinster's name before WW2, I suspect it is a sort of diminution but formed under the rules of mediaeval Polish, meaning the -na suffix here, like in the jovial augmentation-diminutions of some first names, e.g. Jagna, Kachna, nowadays confined to the countryside and then only really the oldest generations when calling young women), which is something the French don't have ("demoiselle" comes from "dame", and by the way, "dame Firstname" was a normal address for an unmarried noblewoman, I think). "Panienka" would never precede a first name or surname, which is the primary use of "mademoiselle". If you wanted to translate "panienka" into French, you'd have to say "petite mademoiselle". Currently, the word "panienka" if used at all, is used as a slang expression for a prostitute or loose young woman or a not very bright or responsible young female. Unless, as you say, an older (and considerably older) gentleman used it. A suitor would not any more ("moja panienka" would be perfectly plausible from a WW2 soldier but in the recent decades unless someone wanted to sound poetical or archaic). Maybe somewhere in the countryside but I doubt that. Also, if you called a woman "panienka", she'd probably cook your liver and feed it to you.

Quote:
Hmmm ok, ignore my ramblings, just thinking aloud.
Like I've been doing anything else myself.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old Jan 14, '12, 5:09 pm
Tenofovir Tenofovir is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2010
Posts: 2,758
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevalier View Post
Currently, the word "panienka" if used at all, is used as a slang expression for a prostitute or loose young woman or a not very bright or responsible young female. Unless, as you say, an older (and considerably older) gentleman used it. A suitor would not any more. Maybe somewhere in the countryside but I doubt that.
Yes my original usages would have been employed prior to WW2. I would imagine someone like Maurice Chevalier would use it .

But I disagree that Panienka would imply a prostitute or a girl of low intellect nowadays. The thugs who would use such, would use far more coarse language. I think it still a polite albeit quite archaic term. Many old people still use it.

And mademoiselle is still quite endearing. I don't know if the French really think so, but for romantic fools like me, it sounds quite respectful.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old Jan 14, '12, 5:12 pm
chevalier's Avatar
chevalier chevalier is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Posts: 10,926
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenofovir View Post
But I disagree that Panienka would imply a prostitute or a girl of low intellect nowadays. The thugs who would use such, would use far more coarse language. I think it still a polite albeit quite archaic term. Many old people still use it.
Depends what you mean by nowadays. Like now, in 2011, oops, 2012, "panienka" would be avoided by anybody less than completely oblivious of his surroundings. WW2 veterans or irreformables like yours truly excepted. And I assure you thugs use way coarser language. I live here, so I know.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old Jan 14, '12, 5:17 pm
Tenofovir Tenofovir is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2010
Posts: 2,758
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevalier View Post
Depends what you mean by nowadays. Like now, in 2011, oops, 2012, "panienka" would be avoided by anybody less than completely oblivious of his surroundings. WW2 veterans or irreformables like yours truly excepted. And I assure you thugs use way coarser language. I live here, so I know.
Except Palikot supporters and fans of Tusk.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old Jan 14, '12, 5:29 pm
chevalier's Avatar
chevalier chevalier is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Posts: 10,926
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenofovir View Post
Except Palikot supporters and fans of Tusk.
The tragedy with Tusk and Platforma Obywatelska is that they are able to gather supporters among educated, honest, hard-working and overall worthy people. Palikot supporters tend to come from all social strata but I believe the core of them are likely to be anticlericals, people for whom sexual minority rights are a top concern, those who want abortion laws relaxed, maybe some others (e.g. disappointed Tusk supporters who aren't particularly fond of patriotism or religion). He has a defrocked priest turned anti-clerical among his top lieutenants.

The other tragedy is that there's nobody to vote for. I voted for Marek Jurek, who is a great person, but I'm scared of the ideas of some of his followers (e.g. the idea that parents should be able to vote on behalf of their minor children...). I used to vote for "PiS" but they've taken the wrong turn. And I refuse to have anything to do with PJN and possibly also SP (SP being the latest spin-off).
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old Jan 14, '12, 5:35 pm
Tenofovir Tenofovir is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2010
Posts: 2,758
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevalier View Post

The other tragedy is that there's nobody to vote for. I voted for Marek Jurek, who is a great person, but I'm scared of the ideas of some of his followers (e.g. the idea that parents should be able to vote on behalf of their minor children...).
Well after what happened with that plane the whole government should resign but Poland is not South Africa. You could also do with some Truth and Reconciliation Commission, but apparently people are not happy with that. It was good enough for De Klerk and Mandela but not for ex-PZPR functionaries. I met your man Wildstein here a couple years ago and it sounds like there are still many unresolved issues with lots of people just not wanting to allow for justice or at least disclosure to occur. Truth does set one free. Ok this is way off topic, I'll shut up now.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old Jan 14, '12, 5:41 pm
chevalier's Avatar
chevalier chevalier is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Posts: 10,926
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenofovir View Post
Well after what happened with that plane the whole government should resign but Poland is not South Africa. You could also do with some Truth and Reconciliation Commission, but apparently people are not happy with that. It was good enough for De Klerk and Mandela but not for ex-PZPR functionaries. I met your man Wildstein here a couple years ago and it sounds like there are still many unresolved issues with lots of people just not wanting to allow for justice or at least disclosure to occur. Truth does set one free. Ok this is way off topic, I'll shut up now.
Yeah, the way some of even the former oppositionists talk and behave, it looks like they value the externals of an existing "moral authority" more than the substance of it. As in, if you reveal an agent, it's a bad thing that we lose such a pillar of community, so it's better to burn the files and never find out. One thing that's true is that nobody of the younger generations has the right to judge those who signed up but did not give information or gave rubbish information or were coerced into revealing information. Not so paid spies who did for money or other gain.

And yeah, looks like we're way off-topic. See ya next time or PM.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old Jan 14, '12, 5:49 pm
George Stegmeir George Stegmeir is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2009
Posts: 2,665
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luna Lovecraft View Post
Remember:

* not every married woman wears a wedding ring;
* not every woman wears her wedding ring on her left hand; and
* not every married woman uses her husband's surname.

I'm married. My surname is Lovecraft. My husband's surname is not Lovecraft. I cannot call myself Miss Lovecraft because I am not single. I cannot call myself Mrs. Lovecraft because she is my mother-in-law. So what do I call myself? Well, I call myself...

Ms. Lovecraft.
Why not call yourself Madame Lovecraft? It sounds much nicer and is ever so much more civilized.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old Jan 14, '12, 5:54 pm
chevalier's Avatar
chevalier chevalier is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Posts: 10,926
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: The beginning of the end for the mademoiselle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by George Stegmeir View Post
Why not call yourself Madame Lovecraft? It sounds much nicer and is ever so much more civilized.
In what exactly situations would an American lady use Madame? I believe the Brits would never do that and I know there was a tendency among Anglo-Saxons to confine Mrs to fellow Anglo-Saxons, while using Madame with foreigners (not only French) but I vaguely recall seeing "Madame" before an English-sounding name in an American context a couple of times.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > In The News > World News

Bookmarks

Tags
feminism, france, french, gender, title

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8304Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: GLam8833
5071CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: mountee
4356Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: johnthebaptist2
4035OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: 3DOCTORS
3853SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3616Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3264Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3212Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Rifester
3202Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
3069For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: Theresa DeSensi



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:45 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.