Where in the Bible is Sirach?

TrueLight · #1 Jan 15, '12, 4:18 am

I was doing dome Lecio Divina this morning, which ended up being a Bible study because what I was reading was so interesting, that I just kept on reading then took out my Study Bible.

So the Bible I am using is the Holy Bible - Douay-Rheims version (Revised by Bishop Challoner). I found an interesting passage and when I went to look up the commentary in my Ignatius study Bible, the study Bible referred to Sirach.

Now being that I'm not as familiar with books not found in the Protestant Bible, I looked in the Old Testament index of the Douay-Rheims Bible. I did not see Sirach listed anywhere.

Then I went to my RSV-CE Bible which is on my iPhone and I see that Sirach is supposed to come after Wisdom of Solomon.

I went back to the index in the Douay-Rheims Bible and I see:
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Isaias

So I thought that Ecclesiasticus might be Sirach. However when I look at the first chapter of both Sirach (in the RSV-CE) and Ecclesiasticus (in the Douay-Rheims), they don't seem to match.

Help!

Is my brain just not working yet?

Phyllo · #2 Jan 15, '12, 4:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

I was doing dome Lecio Divina this morning, which ended up being a Bible study because what I was reading was so interesting, that I just kept on reading then took out my Study Bible.

So the Bible I am using is the Holy Bible - Douay-Rheims version (Revised by Bishop Challoner). I found an interesting passage and when I went to look up the commentary in my Ignatius study Bible, the study Bible referred to Sirach.

Now being that I'm not as familiar with books not found in the Protestant Bible, I looked in the Old Testament index of the Douay-Rheims Bible. I did not see Sirach listed anywhere.

Then I went to my RSV-CE Bible which is on my iPhone and I see that Sirach is supposed to come after Wisdom of Solomon.

I went back to the index in the Douay-Rheims Bible and I see:
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Isaias

So I thought that Ecclesiasticus might be Sirach. However when I look at the first chapter of both Sirach (in the RSV-CE) and Ecclesiasticus (in the Douay-Rheims), they don't seem to match.

Help!

Is my brain just not working yet?

They are the same but just worded differently. I think the DR makes you think more to get the meaning.

TrueLight · #3 Jan 15, '12, 5:29 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phyllo

They are the same but just worded differently. I think the DR makes you think more to get the meaning.

Okay.

Here is Ecclesiasticus 1: 1-6 in the Douay Rheims:

Quote:

1 The words of (A)the Preacher,[a] the son of David, (B)king in Jerusalem.

2 (C)Vanity[b] of vanities, says (D)the Preacher,
(E)vanity of vanities! (F)All is vanity.
3 (G)What (H)does man gain by all the toil
at which he toils under the sun?
4 A generation goes, and a generation comes,
but (I)the earth remains forever.
5 (J)The sun rises, and the sun goes down,
and hastens[c] to the place where it rises.
6 (K)The wind blows to the south
and goes around to the north;
around and around goes the wind,
and on its circuits the wind returns.

From Sirach chapter 1 in the Revised standard
http://www.tparents.org/Library/Unif...vAp/Sirach.htm

Quote:

1: All wisdom comes from the Lord
and is with him for ever.

2: The sand of the sea, the drops of rain,
and the days of eternity -- who can count them?

3: The height of heaven, the breadth of the earth,
the abyss, and wisdom -- who can search them out?

4: Wisdom was created before all things,
and prudent understanding from eternity.

5: The root of wisdom -- to whom has it been revealed?
Her clever devices -- who knows them?

6: There is One who is wise, greatly to be feared,
sitting upon his throne.

This doesn't seem the same to me.

Gorgias · #4 Jan 15, '12, 5:48 am

I think you're confusing Ecclesiastes with Ecclesiasticus. Ecclesiastes starts off "vanity of vanities", while Ecclesiasticus, which follows Wisdom, begins "all wisdom is from the Lord God".

DebChris · #5 Jan 15, '12, 6:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorgias

I think you're confusing Ecclesiastes with Ecclesiasticus. Ecclesiastes starts off "vanity of vanities", while Ecclesiasticus, which follows Wisdom, begins "all wisdom is from the Lord God".

Exactly. Ecclesiasticus and Sirach are the same. The New American Bible even says Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) as does my RSV.

I love rocks · #6 Jan 15, '12, 6:09 am

Try "Wisom of Sirach', or the book of Wisdom (of Sirach). I don't have a Douy Reims handy. I think one of mine is Douay-Confraternity, so I can't look it up from here. In my Ignatius Bible I have..
... Job
Psalms
Proverbs
Ecclesiastes
Song of Solomon
Wisdom of Solomon
Sirach
Isaiah...

to offer some landmarks. Hope that helps. Have a nice day.

Phyllo · #7 Jan 15, '12, 7:56 am

The DR Challoner that I have has Ecclesiasticus that is the book of Sirach.
Then there is the book of Ecclesiastes. Yes, the OP is confusing the two books.

TrueLight · #8 Jan 15, '12, 2:59 pm

I wasn't confusing the two books but I realize what I did, LOL.

The both have a chapter 0. Weird, but I guess that's the prologue. I was looking at chapter 0 in one book and chapter 1 in another.

melekali · #9 Jan 18, '12, 8:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

I was doing dome Lecio Divina this morning, which ended up being a Bible study because what I was reading was so interesting, that I just kept on reading then took out my Study Bible.

So the Bible I am using is the Holy Bible - Douay-Rheims version (Revised by Bishop Challoner). I found an interesting passage and when I went to look up the commentary in my Ignatius study Bible, the study Bible referred to Sirach.

Now being that I'm not as familiar with books not found in the Protestant Bible, I looked in the Old Testament index of the Douay-Rheims Bible. I did not see Sirach listed anywhere.

Then I went to my RSV-CE Bible which is on my iPhone and I see that Sirach is supposed to come after Wisdom of Solomon.

I went back to the index in the Douay-Rheims Bible and I see:
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Isaias

So I thought that Ecclesiasticus might be Sirach. However when I look at the first chapter of both Sirach (in the RSV-CE) and Ecclesiasticus (in the Douay-Rheims), they don't seem to match.

Help!

Is my brain just not working yet?

Sirach = Ecclesiasticus except there are differences between the RSV & DRC. I am presently updating the DRC which I enjoy. I also like the RSV.

Peace.

Usagi · #10 Jan 18, '12, 9:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

I wasn't confusing the two books but I realize what I did, LOL.

The both have a chapter 0. Weird, but I guess that's the prologue. I was looking at chapter 0 in one book and chapter 1 in another.

"Vanity of vanities" is definitely from Ecclesiastes, though, a book that is in both Catholic and Protestant Bibles.

Sirach is also known as Ecclesiasticus, a small but important difference.

Usagi

Ginkgo100 · #11 Jan 19, '12, 10:35 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gorgias

I think you're confusing Ecclesiastes with Ecclesiasticus. Ecclesiastes starts off "vanity of vanities", while Ecclesiasticus, which follows Wisdom, begins "all wisdom is from the Lord God".

That's exactly what's going on. Ecclesiastes and Ecclesiasticus are two completely different books, despite the similar names. Ecclesiasticus is the Latin/archaic name for the Wisdom of Jesus ben Sira, aka the Wisdom of Sirach or just plain Sirach. "Ecclesiastes" means "Preacher" while "Ecclesiasticus" means "Of the Church."

As for the order, that's not divinely inspired

so the books are found in different orders in different Bibles. For example, for some reason, the RSV-CE puts 1 and 2 Maccabees at the end of the OT, after the prophets, instead of with the historical books like the NAB does. Of course, if you have a Bible "with Apocrypha," you have a Protestant Bible that puts the deuterocanonical books and chapters in their own section separate from the rest of the OT, but together with some truly apocryphal books. Try finding "Bel and the Dragon" in a Catholic Bible. It's in there (Daniel 13, I believe), but not under that title!

thistle · #12 Jan 20, '12, 2:10 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

I was doing dome Lecio Divina this morning, which ended up being a Bible study because what I was reading was so interesting, that I just kept on reading then took out my Study Bible.

So the Bible I am using is the Holy Bible - Douay-Rheims version (Revised by Bishop Challoner). I found an interesting passage and when I went to look up the commentary in my Ignatius study Bible, the study Bible referred to Sirach.

Now being that I'm not as familiar with books not found in the Protestant Bible, I looked in the Old Testament index of the Douay-Rheims Bible. I did not see Sirach listed anywhere.

Then I went to my RSV-CE Bible which is on my iPhone and I see that Sirach is supposed to come after Wisdom of Solomon.

I went back to the index in the Douay-Rheims Bible and I see:
Wisdom
Ecclesiasticus
Isaias

So I thought that Ecclesiasticus might be Sirach. However when I look at the first chapter of both Sirach (in the RSV-CE) and Ecclesiasticus (in the Douay-Rheims), they don't seem to match.

Help!

Is my brain just not working yet?

Have another look at the D-R and scroll down.

http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id330.html

Petergee · #13 Jan 20, '12, 2:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ginkgo100

for some reason, the RSV-CE puts 1 and 2 Maccabees at the end of the OT, after the prophets, instead of with the historical books like the NAB does.

Because the Maccabees were the last books of the OT to be written. I think this is actually the classic order, from which the NAB departs.

hawkeye125646 · #14 Feb 24, '12, 10:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phyllo

They are the same but just worded differently. I think the DR makes you think more to get the meaning.

Here are some typologies from the New Testament, from Sirach
Matthew 6:19 'Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moth and woodworm destroy them and thieves can break in and steal. But store up treasures for yourselves in heaven, where neither moth nor woodworm destroys them and thieves cannot break in and steal. Sirach 29:10 Spend your money on your brother or your friend, do not leave it under a stone to rust away. 11 Use your wealth as the Most High has decreed; you will find that more profitable than gold.
Matthew 7:17 In the same way, a sound tree produces good fruit but a rotten tree bad fruit.18 A sound tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a rotten tree bear good fruit. 19 Any tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown on the fire. 20 I repeat, you will be able to tell them by their fruits. Sirach 27:4 In a shaken sieve the rubbish is left behind, so too the defects of a person appear in speech.5 The kiln tests the work of the potter, the test of a person is in conversation. 6 The orchard where the tree grows is judged by its fruit, similarly words betray what a person feels. 7 Do not praise anyone who has not yet spoken, since this is where people are tested. 8 If you pursue virtue, you will attain it and put it on like a festal gown.

Mark4:16 Similarly, those who are sown on patches of rock are people who, when first they hear the word, welcome it at once with joy. 17 But they have no root deep down and do not last; should some trial come, or some persecution on account of the word, at once they fall away. Sirach 40:15 The sprigs of the godless will not make many branches, tainted roots find only hard rock. 16 The reed that grows by every lake and river's edge is the first plant to be uprooted.
Luke 1:52 He has pulled down princes from their thrones and raised high the lowly. Sirach 10:14 The Lord has turned mighty princes off their thrones and seated the humble there instead.
Luke 21:24 'For great misery will descend on the land and retribution on this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive to every gentile country; and Jerusalem will be trampled down by the gentiles until their time is complete. Sirach 28:18 Many have fallen by the edge of the sword, but many more have fallen by the tongue.
Romams 4:17 (as scripture says: I have made you the father of many nations). Abraham is our father in the eyes of God, in whom he put his faith, and who brings the dead to life and calls into existence what does not yet exist. Sirach 44:19 Abraham, the great ancestor of a host of nations, no one

Deus_lo_vult · #15 Feb 24, '12, 12:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrueLight

Okay.

Here is Ecclesiasticus 1: 1-6 in the Douay Rheims:

From Sirach chapter 1 in the Revised standard
http://www.tparents.org/Library/Unif...vAp/Sirach.htm

This doesn't seem the same to me.

Yes, Ecclesiasticus can be confused with Ecclesiastes, but they are not the same. Sirach is sometimes called Ecclesiasticus. "Jesus, son of Eleazar, son of Sirach" is the name of the scribe who wrote the book. Sirach is actually after Wisdom.