Catholics VS Health Care in America: Morally Embarrassing - Page 21

**tonyrey** · #**301** Jan 26, '12, 5:14 pm

[quote=dmelosi;8879250]You have not explained what helping the poor is, yet you have said that the U.S. does not

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The corporal works of mercy are clear enough.

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Abortion is killing a human life, do you agree that is a great evil?

Yes but is it a greater evil than allowing millions of people to suffer and die without health care when abortions will be committed regardless of our belief?

**tonyrey** · #**302** Jan 26, '12, 5:17 pm

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Originally Posted by dmelosi

The problem with democrats that are married to their party is they try to say that killing a human being is a moral value.

A travesty of the truth! I for one am not "married to their party" nor have I stated that "killing a human being is a moral value".

bearer · #**303** Jan 26, '12, 5:17 pm

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Originally Posted by MindOverMatter2

Can somebody demonstrate to me why state sponsored healthcare is synonymous to socialism?

Merriam-Webster has the answer:

socialism (noun) : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

MindOverMatter2 · #**304** Jan 26, '12, 5:18 pm

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Originally Posted by dmelosi

Absolutely indifferent to human need, acknowledging only those who can afford to exist? You might be the only person on here to believe that.

And yet you would support the premise that private property and money is more important than the lives of those who suffer or die for want of a decent and dignified health service they cannot practically afford.

Is this your position or not? If it is your position, it would be best for you to remain silent, since it seems you cannot utter a word without contradicting yourself.

dmelosi · #**305** Jan 26, '12, 5:20 pm

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Originally Posted by tonyrey

Yes but is it a greater evil than allowing millions of people to suffer and die without health care when abortions will be committed regardless of our belief?

I am trying to get a straight answer from you. Are you saying that millions of people suffer and die in the U.S. because of no health care? Is that each year or what do you mean?

Corporal works of mercy....

To feed the hungry;
To give drink to the thirsty;
To clothe the naked;
To harbour the harbourless;
To visit the sick;
To ransom the captive;
To bury the dead.

Who do you think does a better job of this than the U.S.?

Can you be specific and site a source to your bitterness to the U.S.?

dmelosi · #**306** Jan 26, '12, 5:23 pm

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Originally Posted by tonyrey

A travesty of the truth! I for one am not "married to their party" nor have I stated that "killing a human being is a moral value".

Read your post # 301, you certainly did say that killing a human being is a moral value.

dmelosi · #**307** Jan 26, '12, 5:26 pm

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Absolutely indifferent to human need, acknowledging only those who can afford to exist? You might be the only person on here to believe that.

Do you believe that you are discussing something or trying to ram your view with dramatics down peoples throats?

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Originally Posted by MindOverMatter2

And yet you would support the premise that private property and money is more important than the lives of those who suffer or die for want of a decent and dignified health service they cannot practically afford.

Why are you making things up?

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Is this your position or not? If it is your position, it would be best for you to remain silent, since it seems you cannot utter a word without contradicting yourself.

**tonyrey** · #**308** Jan 26, '12, 5:26 pm

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Originally Posted by bearer

Any privatization of NHS is not the cause of child poverty. You know why so many are advocating privatization? Issues like these:

Thousands of British cancer patients denied vital drugs

Smokers and fat patients thrown off NHS waiting lists

One million 'needlessly in pain'

And this list goes on and on and on. Public and universal healthcare is an ideal, and no grounded in the realities of politics, economics, and medicine.

I'd advise that you refrain from casting stones until your country gets its own act together.

I know people who have returned from the US and are appalled by the lack of health care. Some have had a colossal bill for hospital treatment after an accident. For all its imperfections the NHS is a vast improvement on no help whatsoever...

In the last few years I have had to phone 999 several times and have been deeply impressed by the quality of treatment I have received - which is often superior to that in private hospitals dominated by the profit motive.

**tonyrey** · #**309** Jan 26, '12, 5:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmelosi

Read your post # 301, you certainly did say that killing a human being is a moral value.

My precise words:

"In a democratic nation it is futile to attempt to inflict one's moral values on the majority."

I am not to blame if others have different moral values... They may be false values but they are still values they consider to be justified.

MindOverMatter2 · #**310** Jan 26, '12, 5:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearer

Merriam-Webster has the answer:

socialism (noun) : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Context is a key issue that you seem blind to for want of denial.

1. The Church does not reject tax. Does the Church therefore support socialism? No. Because the Church knows that given capitalism the state needs to tax in order to provide community services that supports peoples needs. Its a necessity that the market place cannot provide. These are state sponsored services; not socialism.

2. The right to private property is conditional on the needs of society as whole. If people are marginalised by the market place, then human need overrides and transcends the right to private property. You cannot call a starving person a thief. In certain circumstances, a redistribution of wealth or the redistribution of the means to production through tax or revolution is not immoral or contradictory to the churches stance towards socialism so long as necessity calls for it. It is actually theft to retain resources that are absolutely needed by the community and cannot be practically afforded in the market place.

3. People need health care, or they will die or suffer indignity. The market place cannot provide good and sufficient health-care for those who are poor and cannot practically afford it. It is therefore the States responsibility to provide services for peoples needs that evidently cannot consistently or practically be provided otherwise through capitalism. Therefore the state needs to provide health care through tax in order to provide the best health care for those who cannot rely on the market. This is state sponsored health care system. Its not socialism.

You can close your eyes to reality all you want. Its not difficult to grasp. I am not saying anything that is against Church teaching.

**tonyrey** · #**311** Jan 26, '12, 5:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MindOverMatter2

Context is a key issue that you seem blind to for want of denial. The Church does not reject tax. Does the Church therefore support socialism? No. Because the Church knows that given capitalism the state needs to tax in order to provide community services that supports peoples needs. Its a necessity that the market place cannot provide. These are state sponsored services; not socialism.

People need health care, or they will die. The market place cannot provide good health-care for those who are poor and cannot practically afford it. It is the States responsibility to provide services for peoples needs that evidently cannot consistently or practically be provided otherwise through capitalism. Therefore the state needs to provide health care through tax in order to provide the best health care for those who cannot rely on the market. This is state sponsored health care system. Its not socialism.

Its difficult to grasp.

"It is the State's responsibility to provide services for people's needs that evidently cannot consistently or practically be provided otherwise through capitalism."

Succinct and conclusive!

It's difficult to grasp for those who prefer not to understand!

**tonyrey** · #**312** Jan 26, '12, 5:38 pm

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Originally Posted by dmelosi

Do you believe that you are discussing something or trying to ram your view with dramatics down peoples throats?

Argumentum ad hominem.

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]

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And yet you would support the premise that private property and money is more important than the lives of those who suffer or die for want of a decent and dignified health service they cannot practically afford.

Why are you making things up?

Argumentum ad hominem.

You have evaded the points that have been made...

MindOverMatter2 · #**313** Jan 26, '12, 5:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmelosi

Why are you making things up?

Is this your position or not? If it is your position, it would be best for you to remain silent, since it seems you cannot utter a word without contradicting yourself.

dmelosi · #**314** Jan 26, '12, 5:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyrey

My precise words:

"In a democratic nation it is futile to attempt to inflict one's moral values on the majority."

I am not to blame if others have different moral values... They may be false values but they are still values they consider to be justified.

You are denying that you said that killing a human being is a moral value? Or are you denying that abortion is killing a human being?

MindOverMatter2 · #**315** Jan 26, '12, 5:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyrey

"It is the State's responsibility to provide services for people's needs that evidently cannot consistently or practically be provided otherwise through capitalism."

Succinct and conclusive!

It's difficult to grasp for those who prefer not to understand!

Yeah

. I have edited and added some more in that post. You might want to take a look.