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  #1  
Old Jan 22, '12, 6:49 pm
UnityofTrinity UnityofTrinity is offline
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Post Latinization of the Maronite Church.

My brothers and sisters, forgive my ignorance, I do not know well about this beloved rite. However from what I've seen from pictures and the internet, the Maronite Church seem awfully close and to a certain degree almost resemble the Roman rite in its celebration, vestment, and spirituality. Is this a result of heavy latinization or is this how the ancient Maronite church celebrated. God be with you all
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  #2  
Old Jan 22, '12, 8:02 pm
Phillip Rolfes Phillip Rolfes is offline
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Default Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

I myself am somewhat new to the topic of the Maronites, but I'm trying to learn as much as I can. There are a number of well-informed Maronites here on the Eastern Catholic Forums, hopefully one or all of them will comment here.

My impression is that the Maronites, as pretty much every single Eastern and Oriental Church in communion with Rome, have suffered a great deal of Latinization. Perhaps even more so since they have maintained communion with Rome longer than any other Eastern or Oriental Church. I also get the impression that a process of de-Latinization has been implemented and under way for some years now, with greater or lesser success depending on who you talk to. The official stance of the Patriarchate is for de-Latinization (unless I'm misreading something). How well that process has been implemented in this country (the U.S.) or any other country is debatable.

Some here on the forums do not like the reforms that have taken place. Others see them as a restoration of the authentic Maronite tradition. I'm not well-read enough in the Maronite tradition to offer an opinion. I'd say that Malphono and Fr. Deacon Yuhanna are probably the best people to talk to. The will most likely give you opposing opinions, but it'll give you an idea of what's out there at least.

The topic of de-Latinization and reform among the Eastern and Oriental Catholics is very sensitive and will unleash a wide range of opinions, some very positive, others very negative. Just be aware that such topics usually walk on thin ice, and emotions can run rather high.
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  #3  
Old Jan 23, '12, 8:19 am
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MaroniteRosary MaroniteRosary is offline
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Default Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnityofTrinity View Post
My brothers and sisters, forgive my ignorance, I do not know well about this beloved rite. However from what I've seen from pictures and the internet, the Maronite Church seem awfully close and to a certain degree almost resemble the Roman rite in its celebration, vestment, and spirituality. Is this a result of heavy latinization or is this how the ancient Maronite church celebrated. God be with you all
Yes, we Maronites are very Latinized. One of the reasons might be because we never split from the Roman church as other rites have.?
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  #4  
Old Jan 24, '12, 10:25 am
Farmer88 Farmer88 is offline
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Default Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

If I recall what I have been informed by others who were more knowledgeable about this topic, the Maronites used to have a more Eastern-style liturgy and traditions, but when Latin Catholics came into contact with the Maronites over the centuries, they threw out and destroyed a lot of Maronite traditions, including the liturgy, and proceeded to morph it into a hybrid.

Do NOT quote me on that because that is simply what I recall being told about. But I wouldn't be surprised if this is at least partially true. The Latin Catholics, for hundreds of years, considered the Eastern Catholics to have errors in their liturgy and theology, which included the Divine Liturgy, and that prior to the bans on latinization, there was a push to get the Eastern Catholics to eventually switch over to the Roman Rite. This explains why, aside from the tiny non-Roman rites in Spain and Milan, there ARE no other rites in the West. But, I repeat, do not quote me on this because I could be at least partially wrong.
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  #5  
Old Jan 24, '12, 10:47 am
dcointin dcointin is offline
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Default Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

I attended a liturgy at the Maronite cathedral in St. Louis, and my impression was that the parish was heavily Latinized in a post-Vatican II way. The architecture and iconography were very modern, the priest faced the people, and the liturgy seemed to be a hybrid of the Ordinary Form and an eastern rite (I couldn't identify it, though it was similar to the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in many ways). It was by far much more Latinized than the Ruthenian parish I visited here.
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  #6  
Old Jan 24, '12, 12:39 pm
Deacon Yuhanna Deacon Yuhanna is offline
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Default Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

See my postings to the Qoorbono page. Bear in mind that some of what came in to the Latin rite after VII was influenced by the East, including the Maronite rite (e.g. restoring the epiclesis). The Blessed JPII said so.
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  #7  
Old Jan 24, '12, 12:45 pm
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MaroniteRosary MaroniteRosary is offline
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Default Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmer88 View Post
If I recall what I have been informed by others who were more knowledgeable about this topic, the Maronites used to have a more Eastern-style liturgy and traditions, but when Latin Catholics came into contact with the Maronites over the centuries, they threw out and destroyed a lot of Maronite traditions, including the liturgy, and proceeded to morph it into a hybrid.

Do NOT quote me on that because that is simply what I recall being told about. But I wouldn't be surprised if this is at least partially true. The Latin Catholics, for hundreds of years, considered the Eastern Catholics to have errors in their liturgy and theology, which included the Divine Liturgy, and that prior to the bans on latinization, there was a push to get the Eastern Catholics to eventually switch over to the Roman Rite. This explains why, aside from the tiny non-Roman rites in Spain and Milan, there ARE no other rites in the West. But, I repeat, do not quote me on this because I could be at least partially wrong.
Im sorry to quote it was way too tempting, but I think the liturgy was also changed when the crusades came over and put the Maronites in communion with the pope.
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  #8  
Old Jan 24, '12, 2:09 pm
UnityofTrinity UnityofTrinity is offline
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Post Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

but then what makes Maronite a unique rite? Sometimes I wonder if the Maronite Church is another Roman Catholic Church with Syrian
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  #9  
Old Jan 24, '12, 2:52 pm
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MaroniteRosary MaroniteRosary is offline
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Default Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

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Originally Posted by UnityofTrinity View Post
but then what makes Maronite a unique rite? Sometimes I wonder if the Maronite Church is another Roman Catholic Church with Syrian
If that was the case then we would be The Roman Rite.

There are many things that make the Maronite Church unique
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  #10  
Old Jan 25, '12, 1:49 pm
Deacon Yuhanna Deacon Yuhanna is offline
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Default Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

The Maronite rite is the only one which is both Antiochene and Syriac. One needs to study the liturgical traditions of the various liturgy centres and languages to have a sense of what that means: e.g. the Byzantine liturgy is more "elaborated", the Roman is more the action of the cleric, etc.

It is the only rite with the anaphoras of St John Maroun, St John of Lehfed (not presently in use), and Peter III (although Addai and Mari represents another witness to the tradition from which this anaphora comes), which express the Antiochene spirit (John of Lehfed is translated into French in the Pentalogie Maronite). Its liturgy and hymns were conformed to the mentality of its people, so that it perfectly expressed and maintained their religiosity. As the Maronites have become more diverse, this no longer holds true to the same extent, especially outside of the Middle East.

The pristine Maronite religious spirit was marked by a keen sense of the presence of God, the need for penance, the reality of suffering and the need to transform it, the reality of miracles, of angels and devils, of eschatological doctrines. Thus we have a preparation for Lent in which there are several commemorations of the departed (as opposed to 1 and 2 November, which are Latin feasts in our liturgy). These commemorative Masses are said each day for 21 days.

It uses many Syriac resources, e.g. the works of Ephrem, Jacob Sarugi, etc. These are especially retained in a pure form in the office, but also influence the Divine Liturgy.

Our Divine Liturgy was celebrated on Sundays, not other days, until Latin influence introduced this practice and made it widespread in the 18th century. The view of the sanctuary was always open to the congregation. We had no "low Mass" until the Latins introduced it. As the entire church and its communities were organized around monasteries, there was massive influence in liturgy and belief from monastic practices. This has lessened with time, but my guess is that the proportionate influence of monks is still far beyond what it is in any other church, Catholic or otherwise.

The Divine Liturgy stresses the reality of the sacrifice of the Mass and its miraculous nature beyond what even the Tridentine rite does (e.g. we kept the epiclesis while the Latin did not).

The Maronite Church also lays relatively great importance on linking Our Lady to Our Lord (e.g. she was never presented in art unless He was also shown), the role of John the Forerunner (Baptist), and so the Epiphany which for us is pre-eminently the baptism and manifestation of Our Lord as Son of God and Third Member of the Trinity, still has its own midnight liturgy and once had a magnificent river-side ceremony.

That is sufficient to start. There are many small details which individually might be found elsewhere, but make a cumulative difference. Yours in Christ, Deacon Yuhanna
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  #11  
Old Jan 25, '12, 3:34 pm
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Yuhanna View Post
The Divine Liturgy stresses the reality of the sacrifice of the Mass and its miraculous nature beyond what even the Tridentine rite does (e.g. we kept the epiclesis while the Latin did not).
The Tridentine rite has the prayer prior to the canon.

Veni, sanctificator omnipotens Šterne Deus:
et benedic hoc sacrificium, tuo sancto nomini preparatum.
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  #12  
Old Jan 25, '12, 4:08 pm
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MaroniteRosary MaroniteRosary is offline
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Default Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Yuhanna View Post
The Maronite rite is the only one which is both Antiochene and Syriac. One needs to study the liturgical traditions of the various liturgy centres and languages to have a sense of what that means: e.g. the Byzantine liturgy is more "elaborated", the Roman is more the action of the cleric, etc.

It is the only rite with the anaphoras of St John Maroun, St John of Lehfed (not presently in use), and Peter III (although Addai and Mari represents another witness to the tradition from which this anaphora comes), which express the Antiochene spirit (John of Lehfed is translated into French in the Pentalogie Maronite). Its liturgy and hymns were conformed to the mentality of its people, so that it perfectly expressed and maintained their religiosity. As the Maronites have become more diverse, this no longer holds true to the same extent, especially outside of the Middle East.

The pristine Maronite religious spirit was marked by a keen sense of the presence of God, the need for penance, the reality of suffering and the need to transform it, the reality of miracles, of angels and devils, of eschatological doctrines. Thus we have a preparation for Lent in which there are several commemorations of the departed (as opposed to 1 and 2 November, which are Latin feasts in our liturgy). These commemorative Masses are said each day for 21 days.

It uses many Syriac resources, e.g. the works of Ephrem, Jacob Sarugi, etc. These are especially retained in a pure form in the office, but also influence the Divine Liturgy.

Our Divine Liturgy was celebrated on Sundays, not other days, until Latin influence introduced this practice and made it widespread in the 18th century. The view of the sanctuary was always open to the congregation. We had no "low Mass" until the Latins introduced it. As the entire church and its communities were organized around monasteries, there was massive influence in liturgy and belief from monastic practices. This has lessened with time, but my guess is that the proportionate influence of monks is still far beyond what it is in any other church, Catholic or otherwise.

The Divine Liturgy stresses the reality of the sacrifice of the Mass and its miraculous nature beyond what even the Tridentine rite does (e.g. we kept the epiclesis while the Latin did not).

The Maronite Church also lays relatively great importance on linking Our Lady to Our Lord (e.g. she was never presented in art unless He was also shown), the role of John the Forerunner (Baptist), and so the Epiphany which for us is pre-eminently the baptism and manifestation of Our Lord as Son of God and Third Member of the Trinity, still has its own midnight liturgy and once had a magnificent river-side ceremony.

That is sufficient to start. There are many small details which individually might be found elsewhere, but make a cumulative difference. Yours in Christ, Deacon Yuhanna
Didn't the Qorbono change while the Maronites were coming in communion with the Pope through the Crusades, or no?
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  #13  
Old Jan 25, '12, 4:55 pm
Kielbasi Kielbasi is offline
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Default Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnityofTrinity View Post
My brothers and sisters, forgive my ignorance, I do not know well about this beloved rite. However from what I've seen from pictures and the internet, the Maronite Church seem awfully close and to a certain degree almost resemble the Roman rite in its celebration, vestment, and spirituality. Is this a result of heavy latinization or is this how the ancient Maronite church celebrated. God be with you all

The Maronite Church as been in the United States for more than a century, here in Pittsburgh at least since 1904.

Living in close proximity to an overwhelming number of Latin Rite Catholics, attending their schools and intermarrying among them, it would seem a natural transference of ideas. It certainly goes both ways.

Mixing a beaker of red dye with a beaker of blue will give you purple. But if the beaker of red dye is a hundred times bigger than the beaker of blue, it turns out a lot more red.

I bet you don't see the latinizations as much in Maronite churches in Syria and Lebanon.
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  #14  
Old Jan 25, '12, 4:58 pm
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MaroniteRosary MaroniteRosary is offline
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Default Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

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Originally Posted by Kielbasi View Post
The Maronite Church as been in the United States for more than a century, here in Pittsburgh at least since 1904.

Living in close proximity to an overwhelming number of Latin Rite Catholics, attending their schools and intermarrying among them, it would seem a natural transference of ideas. It certainly goes both ways.

Mixing a beaker of red dye with a beaker of blue will give you purple. But if the beaker of red dye is a hundred times bigger than the beaker of blue, it turns out a lot more red.

I bet you don't see the latinizations as much in Maronite churches in Syria and Lebanon.
Very true.
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  #15  
Old Jan 26, '12, 12:56 am
Deacon Yuhanna Deacon Yuhanna is offline
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Default Re: Latinization of the Maronite Church.

Just shortly, the Latin ProVobis cites is not an epiclesis: it is not an invocation of the Holy Spirit to come upon the oblations and transubstantiate them. Some Latin scholars have argued that there is effectively an epiclesis in the Tridentine rite, but there wasn't - and the majority accept this. It doesn't mean that the Tridentine was invalid or inferior - but it does mark a difference.

And yes, I see fewer Latinizations in Lebanon and Syria. I'll give three examples, (1) I have seen no communion on the hand there, and I mean none (although I am sure it must go on somewhere). (2) I never saw altar serviettes, except once in Syria, where they dressed as nuns. (3) I saw very few "low" Masses there - and almost none without incense, even during the week!

But let's bear in mind, both the Maronite and Roman rites were simple, not at all florid. They will naturally look something alike.

Most importantly: it's a fact that certain features many think of as Latin, actually came from the East (e.g. the Lord's Prayer and Agnus Dei - Lamb of God). Yours in Christ, Deacon Yuhanna
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