The reunited church - Page 2

Phillip Rolfes · #16 Jan 26, '12, 5:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG

Those who instigated the schism have sinned. But those who are born in a state of schism aren't. Schismatics are sinners because the break apart the Church which is the Mystical Body of Christ. But all those who are born into families who are part of the Orthodox faith, they had no hand in the schism. They are born into schism. They were innocent of whatever happened that tore the Church apart. But by being faithful to all traditions of the Church, they have remained true to the faith and thus be part of the true Church.

Conversely the Orthodox could say the same about Catholics.

Cavaradossi · #17 Jan 26, '12, 5:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes

Conversely the Orthodox could say the same about Catholics.

Fr. Thomas Hopko makes this point. It is improper to refer to all people who are part of other churches as schismatics, just as it is improper to all people who believe in heretical beliefs as heretics. One can't be a heretic or a schismatic if he was never part of the Church to begin with.

Phillip Rolfes · #18 Jan 26, '12, 5:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavaradossi

Fr. Thomas Hopko makes this point. It is improper to refer to all people who are part of other churches as schismatics, just as it is improper to all people who believe in heretical beliefs as heretics. One can't be a heretic or a schismatic if he was never part of the Church to begin with.

+Kyr Elias Zoghby proposed the hypothesis that insofar as we persist in maintaining our separation - i.e. building obstacles to (re)union rather than working together to tear down already existing obstacles - we have all fallen short of the true Faith; we are all schismatics.

Just an interesting bit to meditate on.

I agree with the vast majority of ecumenical leaders both within Catholicism and Orthodoxy, Rome/the West needs Orthodoxy/the East, and Orthodoxy needs Rome. Each communion of Churches has its own baggage, and learning from each other can help us to shed that baggage.

John of Patmos · #19 Jan 26, '12, 5:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by John of Patmos

I can understand imitating them in their ascetic lifestyles, but venerating them? Do ECs believe EO saints are in Heaven? I asked a local RC priest, who said no.

Sorry about the whole "...." thing...

Phillip, can you find that document? I would love to read it.

So can even a RC venerate a particulary holy EO saint w/o sin?
Did Blessed John Paul II really have an icon of Theophan?
Finally, do any ECs venerate Nikolai-Do ?(i love him)!

Phillip Rolfes · #20 Jan 26, '12, 6:24 pm

Private devotions to saints is, well, private. You can most certainly venerate Orthodox saints privately without sin. If you genuinely want to be a part of the Eastern Catholic tradition, you must learn to venerate the holy men and women of the East. This includes venerating non-Catholic Orthodox saints. Whenever particular Churches have re-established communion with Rome, they continue to venerate the saints that are a part of their tradition. I don't own a Menaion, but I presume that if I did, I would find a large number of saints who are venerated liturgically, but died outside of communion with Rome.

The Vatican II document you should look at is the "Decree on Ecumenism" Unitatis Redintegratio. I don't know the CCC reference, but if you do a quick look through the index you'll find references to Orthodoxy.

5Loaves · #21 Jan 26, '12, 6:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by John of Patmos

Do ECs believe EO "saints" are in Heaven? I asked a local RC priest, who said no, or at least for RCs...

This reminds me of that joke about St. Peter giving a tour of heaven. He tells those in the tour to be quite as they pass a walled off area. "Why?" asks one of them. "That's where the Catholics are. They think they're the only ones in heaven."

5Loaves · #22 Jan 26, '12, 7:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by John of Patmos

So can even a RC venerate a particulary holy EO saint w/o sin?

We certainly venerate Orthodox saints in my parish. We follow the Orthodox calendar. In December for the next year each of us is given a wall calendar from St. Tikhon (Orthodox) Seminary press which includes all the feasts, citation of the daily scripture readings, and the fastings. On the Feast of All-Saints of North America our Latin (bi-ritual) priest in his homily reminded us that we have the relics a Saint right in our neighborhood, St. John Maximovitch Wonder-worker of Shanghai and San Francisco and we all ought to be sure to spend time venerating them on this feast or in the near future. His unembalmed relics are in a shrine in the nave of Holy Virgin Cathedral. A number of us go there also at times for the weekly Sat. moleben service to Saint John with special prayer intentions. I think we all consider it a great blessing that our parish lies in the shadow of this great cathedral and the relics of this saint of North America.

DaddyGirl · #23 Jan 26, '12, 7:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by John of Patmos

So say we are all one happy family again, and the great schism is ended. I know there would be countless problems to be solved, but I just want to focus on one. What would we do about saints? Would ex Orthodox venerate western saints, and would the west venerate eastern saints (ie all post schism ones, not just a few here and there)?

I don't know much about how things are going with this "reuniting" situation (is this a reality people are actually working on? I don't hear non-Catholics talking about it at all)....but I want to ask, is the Catholic church willing to be flexible in negotiating a compromise with the schism group(s) on all the topics that are "problems to be solved"?

Or is the Church just wanting the other group(s) to come around to their way?

Ignatius · #24 Jan 26, '12, 7:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by John of Patmos

So say we are all one happy family again, and the great schism is ended. I know there would be countless problems to be solved, but I just want to focus on one. What would we do about saints? Would ex Orthodox venerate western saints, and would the west venerate eastern saints?

Yes.

Ancient1 · #25 Jan 26, '12, 7:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyGirl

I don't know much about how things are going with this "reuniting" situation (is this a reality people are actually working on? I don't hear non-Catholics talking about it at all)....but I want to ask, is the Catholic church willing to be flexible in negotiating a compromise with the schism group(s) on all the topics that are "problems to be solved"?

Or is the Church just wanting the other group(s) to come around to their way?

Really working on?!? Heavens, there have been incredible efforts, one might even say historic, by our Holy Father, regarding the Great Schism and the, well, little one that is a more contemporary annoyance.

Realize this is not negotiating a business merger. You cannot "compromise" on truth. Is there a problem with the One True Church founded by Christ and headed by His Vicar on earth desiring the runaway children to come home? And if they do so with a bit of humility instead of demands and long treatises, might harmony and understanding be much easier?

ConstantineTG · #26 Jan 26, '12, 8:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes

Conversely the Orthodox could say the same about Catholics.

I believe our side is as guilty of the schism as their side is.

DaddyGirl · #27 Jan 27, '12, 5:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ancient1

Really working on?!? Heavens, there have been incredible efforts, one might even say historic, by our Holy Father, regarding the Great Schism and the, well, little one that is a more contemporary annoyance.

Realize this is not negotiating a business merger. You cannot "compromise" on truth. Is there a problem with the One True Church founded by Christ and headed by His Vicar on earth desiring the runaway children to come home? And if they do so with a bit of humility instead of demands and long treatises, might harmony and understanding be much easier?

So...but...how specifically, is it being worked on?
Do you know?
I will look it up online. If there have been "incredible" and "historic" efforts, I'm sure there must be tons and tons of examples and information out there on the details. But if you have a few examples, I'd be most appreciative.

But I don't understand. When you talk about compromise...if one side is willing to be open-minded about a few points in order to "reunite"...and the other side is not...how, exactly, is this reunion supposed to come into being?
(this is an honest question, but I know I am very un-knowledged on this topic, so my question may be very elementary, so please forgive me on that...)

Is the Catholic side basically just wanting all the non-Catholic Christian groups to change their beliefs, traditions and rituals--and that is the only way a reunion can happen?

Speedypizza · #28 Jan 27, '12, 7:23 am

In regards to the Protestant denominations, how COULD we come up with any plan that would make all of them happy? It would almost be like trying to find one climate for plants and animals from all over the world, it would never work. They cannot agree among themselves, much less us. In fact about the only thing they all seem to agree on is that Catholics are wrong!

Now in regard to the Orthodox Churches, I guess the question I would need to ask is what are the issues that are keeping us apart? From my understanding, we have already solved the issue of where the Holy Spirit comes from and the issue of what kind of bread to use. The only real issue that I know of is that of the Pope. The Orthodox believe that he is the "First among equals" while the Catholics place him in a higher light. However to me if one looks at the Eastern Catholic Churches, I don't see the Pope issuing many commands. In fact in regard to them he really DOES seem to be "first among equals" and not a reigning tyrant.

I also think part of the problem is one of simple logistics and of definitions. The Orthodox say that the Roman Church broke off from them, where as the Roman Church says the same thing about them. Now I can see how the Orthodox could join with Rome, it would really be as simple as changing the sign out front from Orthodox to Eastern Catholic. Unless of course there are some differences that I do not know about. However how could Rome "Join" with the Orthodox other then us all becoming Orthodox ourselves? What would we do, change our signs to "Western Roman Orthodox?" Even if we did, under whose command would we place ourselves?

CDB1718 · #29 Jan 27, '12, 7:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyGirl

So...but...how specifically, is it being worked on?
Do you know?
I will look it up online. If there have been "incredible" and "historic" efforts, I'm sure there must be tons and tons of examples and information out there on the details. But if you have a few examples, I'd be most appreciative.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/po...cils/chrstuni/

Nine_Two · #30 Jan 27, '12, 7:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedypizza

I also think part of the problem is one of simple logistics and of definitions. The Orthodox say that the Roman Church broke off from them, where as the Roman Church says the same thing about them. Now I can see how the Orthodox could join with Rome, it would really be as simple as changing the sign out front from Orthodox to Eastern Catholic. Unless of course there are some differences that I do not know about. However how could Rome "Join" with the Orthodox other then us all becoming Orthodox ourselves? What would we do, change our signs to "Western Roman Orthodox?" Even if we did, under whose command would we place ourselves?

This seems as big an issue as the one about Papacy. We define "reunion" differently. Latins treat it as an administrative union. For us the only change is that the pope would be commemorated in the diptychs. Nothing more.