One mortal sin from hell... - Page 2

Edmundus1581 · #16 Jan 30, '12, 7:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thistle

I do not agree at all. It is very easy in most cases to know if you have committed a mortal sin.
If you deliberately miss Mass (other than for the exceptions [illness etc] specified in the CCC) you commit a mortal sin.
.

That's not what the CCC actually says...

Quote:

#2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

In other words, we can miss Mass for a "serious reason", which is not limited to the examples in the CCC, without any sin, even venial sin, and without need to confess it.

bmullins · #17 Jan 30, '12, 7:40 pm

In grave is not necessarily mortal. It has a much better chance of being mortal than sins of a less serious nature, but it's still not necessarily mortal.

Jerry-Jet · #18 Jan 31, '12, 6:20 am

Miss church on Sunday for no good reason and die unrepentant --YES you would go to Hell!

If peple really believed this truth how many more would be at church?!

promethius · #19 Jan 31, '12, 9:34 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by thistle

I do not agree at all. It is very easy in most cases to know if you have committed a mortal sin.
If you deliberately miss Mass (other than for the exceptions [illness etc] specified in the CCC) you commit a mortal sin.

You don't have to disagree, you are both right but speaking to different things... one with a well formed conscience is ALWAYS able to know if they are in a state of grace... however, what he said is something different entirely...

Namely, that things constitute GRAVE MATTER, not that they are defined as mortal sins automatically, so there is never a case where one can look without totally understanding the position of the doer of the deed and objectively declare that an act was automatically and without any doubt whatsoever a mortal sin.

That is true, we cannot judge the culpability of others, we can only help them to discern from themselves based on what they tell us... but the reality is we will never know with certainty... only they will.

Mijoy2 · #20 Jan 31, '12, 11:51 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by promethius

You don't have to disagree, you are both right but speaking to different things... one with a well formed conscience is ALWAYS able to know if they are in a state of grace... however, what he said is something different entirely...

Namely, that things constitute GRAVE MATTER, not that they are defined as mortal sins automatically, so there is never a case where one can look without totally understanding the position of the doer of the deed and objectively declare that an act was automatically and without any doubt whatsoever a mortal sin.

That is true, we cannot judge the culpability of others, we can only help them to discern from themselves based on what they tell us... but the reality is we will never know with certainty... only they will.

This is the way I view this issue as well.

I've attempted threads that address this issue. I believe it is quite obvious that the 60-90% (depending in your source of data) of catholics that miss Mass do not believe they are in mortal sin. Considering the only alternative to this is that they are not troubled by the idea of their skin burning off throughout all eternity.

Which means (logically speaking) that either they are unaware of the church's teaching on this matter (which I doubt. They'd have to have thier catholic head in the proverbial sand to not have heard that this is the church's teaching). Or they do not believe the church has the power/authority to so dogmatically profess such a thing.

Therefore it seems to me that the question IS NOT if a person is going to hell if they miss a Sunday Mass for no good reason. Rather the question IS why are so many catholics so unaware (or so quick to disregard) the teaching of the authority of the church (not the specific teaching, but the authority to teach the specific teaching)?

The question IS, does this disbelief of the church's authority lessen the 2nd or 3rd component, full knowledge/full consent therefore rendering the sin, not mortal?

I've blown this horn before and get few takers except for the pius who effectively suggest 60-90% (much more actually) of catholics and virtually all others, have a one way ticket to the oven.

zz912 · #21 Jan 31, '12, 2:07 pm

Tell your friend he only has it partially right. He is wrong when he says Catholics would go to hell, ANYONE who commits a mortal sin and dies unrepentant goes to hell.

And as others have explained well in this thread, mortal sins are not accidental. They are a willful and deliberate rejection of God and His will.

Kilnadore · #22 Jan 31, '12, 2:10 pm

Hi Pablo,

I'm no expert on the catechism, far from it but I rather doubt that it damns people to hell quite so readily. If you are in a state of grace and you miss mass, I dont think there will be enough distance between your soul and the divine due to your having missed Mass for you to be eternally damned. Thats simply ridiculous.

Please dont take such warnings for granted, from either Protestants, some of whom feel it is their lifes mission to undermine and discredit Catholicism but neither from Catholics either as many are terribly mislead. Do not even panic if a Priest tells you something upsetting such as this, Priests dont always give iron clad Godly accurate answers or advice. Please do not panic like this, God is compassion and love, even the Catholic one! Especially the Catholic one, ie God.

Kilnadore · #23 Jan 31, '12, 2:43 pm

Hi just read Pablo's original post again, my apologies, I seemed to gather from my first visit that it was a Protestant that told Pablo he was so close to hell if he wanted to be a Catholic, sorry about that, am I paranoid? Maybe just a little.

Pablo I know what you mean re guilt and stess over doing things right by the Church, its a recurrent theme in my life as I stray away and return regularly, not that that is unique.

Practical ways to overcome this irrational fear, and by practical I mean genuine and effective, are firstly to make a good confession and recieve the Eucharist soon afterwards.

Then continue to avail of the graces of both sacraments as time goes on and bear in mind their grace giving power. Clarity and peace follow this.

I was having a bit of a panic attack some months back. A man texted me the following and I found it useful and reassuring, hopefully someone else can remind us exactly where it comes from in Scripture because although I found it the other day again, Ive forgotten already.

FEAR,
for God did not give me a spirit of timidity or fear, but a spirit of power and love
AND a sound mind.

Unhealthy, excessive fear is not of God, the grace of the sacraments sorts it out, believe me. Crush the fear with humility and go to confession. Try it and see.

steve b · #24 Jan 31, '12, 2:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmullins

In grave is not necessarily mortal. It has a much better chance of being mortal than sins of a less serious nature, but it's still not necessarily mortal.

Grave i.e. deadly, i.e. mortal. i.e. they are synonomous

steve b · #25 Jan 31, '12, 3:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by pabloSD

Today someone told me that Catholics are just one mortal sin from hell... He said that if you didn't go to Mass on Sunday, and you died on Monday, you would go straight to hell, according to the Church...

the operative term is deliberately miss mass. Scripture gives a very clear warning about this

Heb 10:
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27* but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28* A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29* How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

doesn't [ no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27* but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries ] sound like hell?

Notice

"after receiving the knowledge of the truth"deliberately failing to attend mass on Sunday (the Day)

is already a mortal/grave sin scripturally
there's no sacrifice for sins for the one who deliberately misses mass.
that person profanes the blood of the covenant for deliberately missing mass
they spurn the son of God and outrage the spirit of grace
their punishment is a fearful prospect of judgement and a fury of fire because that person is considered an adversary of God

Why?

To answer that

What is the sacrifice for sin and blood of the covenant ? It’s the Eucharist. The summit of our faith. Matthew 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Jesus the son of God said those words instituting the Eucharist. Jesus further describes the importance of the Eucharist for the soul. Jn 6:53 unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Life of the soul is grace.

Therefore, the one who deliberately misses the Eucharist on Sunday, after being given the knowledge of truth about the Eucharist

- no sacrifice for sin is left for THEM
- they profane the blood of the covenant
- they spurn the son of God & outrage the spirit of grace
- judgment awaits them

Quote:

Originally Posted by p

Protestants believing that as long as they have faith, and in general follow the commandments, they will be saved. Not even when I was a Mormon I felt that way:

How can I stop from feeling this guilt, this fear?

Pablo

Stop listening to Protestants and Mormons

Philthy · #26 Jan 31, '12, 5:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luvtosew

Please state the church teaching on this very very important matter.

The Church teaching on the matter is that the obligation to attend Mass on Sunday (and all Holy Days) is a serious one and that missing Mass constitutes "grave matter", which means that it meets one of the conditions for constituting a mortal sin.

Quote:

I have seen time and time again on this forum that if one dies with a mortal sin they go to hell, no ifs ands or butts.

And that is absolutely correct: one perfect definition of a mortal sin is that it is a sin that if one dies with it on their soul, then they go to Hell.

Quote:

When were talking salvation it needs to be taken seriously.

No one takes salvation more seriously than a Catholic.

Quote:

Now either the Church teaches they do or they don't , which is it

You seem to be confused on the difference between what is "grave matter" and what is a "mortal sin". As Scripture clearly states "all wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly (ie mortal)". As was mentioned above, there are three conditions to the determination of a mortal sin: grave matter, knowledge of the gravity of the sin, free will in committing the sin.
Grave matter is only one quality of the determination of mortal (ie deadly) sin. The gravity of a sin describes it's 'badness". If the sin is relatively trivial - say a minor traffic violation - then it cannot be a mortal sin. In order for a sin to have the potential to be mortal, it must be a very bad sin such as stealing, or any of the 10 commandment sins.
Now, once the determination that the gravity (or badness) of the sin is significant enough to be called "grave matter" the 2 additional requirements exist in the determination of whether the sin involving grave matter constitutes a mortal sin. The first consideration is whether the grave matter was done with the knowledge that it was, in fact, a very serious(grave) sin. If so, then the person committing it may have committed a mortal sin (there is still one last condition to be met); if not, then the person is definitely not guilty of a mortal sin, but merely guilty of unknowingly committing a grave sin. Assuming the first 2 conditions are met, the sin is of a grave nature and the person committing it knows that it is, then only one last condition or dimension of the sinful act remains: was the sin committed freely by the person who committed it? If so, then the person has committed a mortal sin; if not, then the person has not committed a mortal sin. An example of a grave, intentional sin that is not a mortal sin would be if someone is held at gunpoint and forced, say, to steal something from another. Is stealing a grave sin? Absolutely. Did the person who stole know that stealing is a grave sin? Yes, they did. Did the person freely commit the theft? No, and that last point eliminates the possibility of the act involving intentional, grave matter of being a mortal sin.
The difficulty with the above analysis is that there are only 2 people who can really know whether a sin was mortal: the person committing it and God. Another person cannot really know the degree of knowledge and of freedom that another exercises in committing an act involving grave matter. Returning to the original topic, do most people who miss Mass realize exactly how serious it is? I don't think so, if they did, they'd get off their butt and go. Does missing Mass still constitute grave matter and thereby have the POTENTIAL to be a mortal sin? Absolutely.
I hope that helps you understand better the depth and wisdom of the Church in articulating it's teaching on grave matter, knowledge, consent of the will and mortal sin.

govav8er · #27 Jan 31, '12, 5:45 pm

Pablo,
If one see's going to church, and all that applies in the the representation of the sacrifice, and other things that we are aked to do in order to be in a state of grace as an obligation, then these become burdensome. Once this happens, the meaning of why we do these things disappear and get lost and become misinterpreted as "works to gain salvation." This is when guilt and fear creep in to a Catholic's heart and mind and it becomes harder to be a faithful catholic. What one lacks at this point is LOVE. We need to be reminded of His love of us when we are at Mass and see the crucifix. See the Ultimate act of love that God has for us and our attitude will change from having to go to mass to wanting to go to mass. Once the right mindset is achieved, then eerything else gets easy and there are no worries. Keep a light heart and re-engage in the knowledge of the faith.

bmullins · #28 Feb 1, '12, 12:11 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve b

Grave i.e. deadly, i.e. mortal. i.e. they are synonomous

Grave and mortal are not synonymous. Grave has a good chance of being mortal but is not always mortal. Breaking any of the ten commandments is a grave matter. Does that mean that anytime we break a commandment in anyway it is a mortal sin? No.

For instance: thou shalt not steal.

Stealing is a grave matter. Stealing a pencil is a grave matter. Is it a mortal sin? Not usually. It's still a grave matter, you've stolen. If they are synonymous then someone who walks away with someone elses pencil will spend hell in eternity.

**JRKH** · #29 Feb 1, '12, 4:32 am

I hold that, in essence, there is only one "Mortal" sin and that sin is the rejection (intentional or not) of God. It is a failure to embrace the Great commandments of Mt 22:36-40.
All of the other "mortal sins" - acts - stem from this root.

Now the Church, in her wisdom has tried to give us parameters by which to judge our spiritual health and the seriousness of our errors by describing the three requirements of mortal sin as:
1 - Grave matter
2 - Full knowledge
3 - Willing consent

These are good and correct, but too often I think that we miss the idea that these are not three distinct items and we spend too much time trying to define each apart from the others. In truth, these three items that interact with and effect each other. In particular, item two can effect the other two...But this needs to be seen within the context of the two great commandments of Love.

If we Love God and neighbor as we ought, then we will not sin. If we sin, then we are not loving God and neighbor as we ought.

This simple statement shows that, if we are truly trying to Love God with our whole heart, mind and strength, and our neighbor as our self, then ANY sin...Any act that is against our neighbor...is a serious sin against that Love.

Full knowledge..."I know this is wrong"...automatically increases the severity of the sin because, if you know something is wrong, then you should not give your consent to doing it. Likewise, if you know something is wrong...even a small thing, your Love should prevent you from doing it.
So - if one knows something is wrong and does it anyway...the gravity of the sin increases, not because the "matter" is grave, but because the willful rejection of the Loving choice is more damaging to the soul.

God is Love...Sin is not Love. Serious sin is the willful rejection of the Loving choice.

I don't believe it is particularly helpful to try to split hairs over what rises to the level of "Grave Matter" or what level of knowledge, or level of "consent" is sufficient to make something "Mortal". To me such things are confusing and too legalistic. Instead, it is better to look at how something, some choice, stands in relation to the Law of Love.

Love God above all else, and you will avoid sin...Because it hurts Love.

Peace
James

Jerry-Jet · #30 Feb 1, '12, 7:24 am

Satan loves to sell the idea that it is difficult to mortally sin. He must be doing a good job of selling that notion because few Catholics go to confession and much fewer than in the past.

Jesus said the road to eternal life is narrow and FEW there are that find it.

Now among the MANY of Catholics how many believe that it is difficult to committ a mortal sin and how many believe it isn't?

"Work out your salvation with FEAR and trembling". People who do FEAR dying in a state of MORTAL sin. That FEAR isn't a bad thing--it like the FEAR of the Lord is a good thing!