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  #1  
Old Jan 30, '12, 9:04 pm
Hoxbar Hoxbar is offline
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Default Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

I recently read that a very famous Pentacostal pastor wrote a book, "Defending Israel". In this book he makes several claims the Jesus was sent for the Gentiles and not for the Jews. He basically says that the Jews fall under an old covenant with God and us Gentiles needed a messiah not the Jews. Is this true, I've never heard this before?
  #2  
Old Jan 30, '12, 9:09 pm
Hoxbar Hoxbar is offline
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Default Re: Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

I guess that would mean there are different rules for them. If that's true we should all be Jewish!
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Old Jan 30, '12, 9:14 pm
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Default Re: Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

The Messiah is a Jewish concept. The Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. It's not that they don't need a Messiah, they deny that he has come yet. They are still waiting for their Messiah. The first Christians were Jews that recognized Jesus as the Messiah and followed him. So Jesus IS the Messiah, not for one or the other but for both. Christians today aren't waiting for a Messiah, the Messiah came and brought us into the vine.
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Old Jan 30, '12, 9:17 pm
George Stegmeir George Stegmeir is offline
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Default Re: Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

There are all sorts of people who distort the bible and history. Some out of ignorance, others to proove a political and religious (or sacriligious) point.
Your preacher is probably one of those evangelicals who, by promoting the Jews in Israel think they are hastening the second coming.
All of this is poof and nonsense, and very much contrary to Catholic Doctrine. Jesus Christ is the Messiah for all mankind!
It is a matter of historical truth tha the first Christians were Jews who believed Jesus was the Christ, that is, the Messiah. Just look at the twelve Apostles, and those they brought to Christ. There were very few Gentile converts before St. Paul was converted.
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Old Jan 30, '12, 11:03 pm
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Default Re: Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

Let our Savior clear this up:

Matthew 15:24
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.

As His rejection mounted, he announced increasingly that His salvation would be offered to the gentiles (other nations).
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Old Jan 30, '12, 11:13 pm
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Default Re: Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

Quote:
Originally Posted by po18guy View Post
Let our Savior clear this up:

Matthew 15:24
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.

As His rejection mounted, he announced increasingly that His salvation would be offered to the gentiles (other nations).
I may be wrong but wasn't that verse saying the opposite of what you just indicated? Didn't Jesus say he was sent to Israel not to the gentiles?

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Old Jan 31, '12, 12:20 am
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Default Re: Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

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Originally Posted by bmullins View Post
I may be wrong but wasn't that verse saying the opposite of what you just indicated? Didn't Jesus say he was sent to Israel not to the gentiles?

It's archaic English from the Douay-Rheims. By striking out the archaic terms "I was not sent, but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" you can see the true meaning. This clarifies it a bit. It can be used in combination with Matthew 8:5-12, in which He states that even Romans (many from the east and the west) will enter into the Kingdom, while the children of the Kingdom (the Jews) will be cast out into the darkness.

Here, from the NASB (NOT my favorite bible) is a clearer version:

Matthew 15:24
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
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  #8  
Old Jan 31, '12, 12:48 am
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Default Re: Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoxbar View Post
I recently read that a very famous Pentacostal pastor wrote a book, "Defending Israel". In this book he makes several claims the Jesus was sent for the Gentiles and not for the Jews. He basically says that the Jews fall under an old covenant with God and us Gentiles needed a messiah not the Jews. Is this true, I've never heard this before?
Pentecostals in various forms are usually Zionists and supporters of Israel in the political sense. They have a very wrong interpretation of scripture in which they believe (basically) that the Jewish people of today are still under the old law and that they must have ancient Isreal as their land and basically turn back the clock 2000 years and live as the ancient Hebrews until the world ends. Of course this is wrong and a Protestant reading of scripture.

The Jews of today are in desperate need of conversion to the Catholic faith. Jesus is the Saviour of the world; of everybody. How could it make sense to say that the Jews didn't need a messiah when indeed the whole of the Old Testament was basically a period in time waiting for the Messiah to come? Makes no sense. In any case, those who call themselves Jews today are not the same Jews of the old covenant - since the temple was destroyed there hasn't been temple sacrifice. The temple has been destroyed, there are no more sacrifices, and no more priesthood - and the messiah has come to establish the new covenant. So around 200AD those who rejected the Messiah wrote down their traditions as the Talmud, and so now they follow the Torah and Talmud. In other words, to cut a long story short, the Jewish faith of today is a man-made religion; and the Catholic faith is the continuation of and fulfillment the old covenant established under God in ancient Israel. As Catholics we are the true and proper successors of Abraham, Moses, Jacob, etc.

This is how it was explained to me but perhaps it is slightly off-target here and there so don't take my word for it

Last edited by NewsTheMan; Jan 31, '12 at 1:07 am.
  #9  
Old Jan 31, '12, 12:53 am
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Nigel7 Nigel7 is offline
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Default Yes, Jesus IS the Jewish Messiah!

Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews, that the Jews denied and crucified, and are still waiting for.
The Jews are still looking around for their promised Messiah, but He has already come and gone (and will come again in glory). He is JESUS. Their long awaited Messiah IS Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the prophecy of the Jewish Messiah perfectly. They rejected Him and crucified Him, as the prophecy said would happen.



Praise to you Lord Jesus Christ.
  #10  
Old Jan 31, '12, 12:54 am
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Default Re: Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoxbar View Post
I recently read that a very famous Pentacostal pastor wrote a book, "Defending Israel". In this book he makes several claims the Jesus was sent for the Gentiles and not for the Jews. He basically says that the Jews fall under an old covenant with God and us Gentiles needed a messiah not the Jews. Is this true, I've never heard this before?
From Catholicism's perspective, Christ is the universal Saviour, so this view wouldn't hold.
  #11  
Old Jan 31, '12, 1:08 am
Bezant Bezant is offline
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Default Re: Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

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Originally Posted by NewsTheMan View Post
How could it make sense to say that the Jews didn't need a messiah when indeed the whole of the Old Testament was basically a period in time waiting for the Messiah to come? Makes no sense.
Is that actually so? I don't think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewsTheMan View Post
In any case, those who call themselves Jews today are not the same Jews of the old covenant. The temple has been destroyed, there are no more sacrifices, and no more priesthood - and the messiah has come to establish the new covenant. In other words, to cut a long story short, the Jewish faith of today is a man-made religion...
Ancient Judaism was vastly different, but I don't agree with this argument at all and I'm surprised how often it comes up.

The Mosaic Covenant was centuries old before there was a temple, and even after the First Temple was destroyed, even after there were no sacrifices and the priesthood wasn't fully functioning, but that Covenant was still valid -- so I don't think it's enough to argue because there is no temple, functioning priesthood and sacrifices, that Judaism today is essentially "made-up."

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Thus, those who today call themselves Jewish have almost nothing in common with Abraham, Moses, Jacob, Elijah et al - whereas as Catholics we are their true and proper successors in a manner of speaking.
Don't you think that's a little presumptuous?
  #12  
Old Jan 31, '12, 1:27 am
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Default Re: Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoxbar View Post
I recently read that a very famous Pentacostal pastor wrote a book, "Defending Israel". In this book he makes several claims the Jesus was sent for the Gentiles and not for the Jews. He basically says that the Jews fall under an old covenant with God and us Gentiles needed a messiah not the Jews. Is this true, I've never heard this before?
Are you referring to John Hagee?

http://youtu.be/5vfKL_yp_LI


I like Prison Planets Alex Jones impersonation of the anti-catholic John Hagee!

http://youtu.be/MBQYrmLuHto
  #13  
Old Jan 31, '12, 1:29 am
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Default Re: Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

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Originally Posted by Bezant View Post
Is that actually so? I don't think so.
You don't think that the OT is oriented towards the coming of a Saviour, a Messiah?

Quote:
Ancient Judaism was vastly different
Then we agree It's like Protestantism and Catholicism. Many Protestants are happy to admit that the early Christians had vastly different beliefs but that's okay to them because they still justify that they are the same religion as Peter, Paul, Augustine. Clearly, if things are vastly different, it is not the same.

If it were the same religion, we'd be in the false religion.

Quote:
The Mosaic Covenant was centuries old before there was a temple, and even after the First Temple was destroyed, even after there were no sacrifices and the priesthood wasn't fully functioning, but that Covenant was still valid -- so I don't think it's enough to argue because there is no temple, functioning priesthood and sacrifices, that Judaism today is essentially "made-up."
The Mosaic covenant possessed and practiced these three elements and acknowledged them to be their foundation. It just so happened that at the time they were sojourners in the desert without any huge temple - still, they have sacrifice, priesthood and a kind of makeshift temple. They longed for a land, and a temple, as did the Jews in Babylon after the destruction of the first temple- but only because there had been no word from God that the covenant was superseded as we know now.

Quote:
Don't you think that's a little presumptuous?
Not at all. I believe that we are the true spiritual inheritors of Abraham and Moses and that they would rather be Catholic that a Talmudic Jew of the 21st century based on the revelation of God. This isn't being presumptuous or anti-Semetic or hateful or anything of the sort. Jews must be converted, as must all people, and it can be shown to them that all things point towards Christ. We don't need to tread carefully around the fact that Judaism of today, according to Catholic belief, is a false religion. Just as Hinduism and Bhuddism are false religions. This is an objective fact - necessarily implied by Catholic doctrine. Sadly, whenever there is talk of the Jewish faith in any Christian circles there will always be those who think that this is anti-Semitism or that to speak frankly on the issue is insensitive. I don't mean to be insensitive at all, just trying to speak in plain facts. I like Jewish people and I hope that they all convert

Again, this is just all my understanding, which may or may not be accurate in details but in it's broad presentation it must be accurate based on simple Catholic truths. All I wanted to say, in the end, was that Jesus is mankind's Messiah. The scriptures of the Jews clearly prophesy that the Messiah will save all mankind both Jews and Gentiles. Jesus is truly the Messiah prophesied by Jewish scriptures. We should do all we can so that they convert to the Catholic Faith to become one flock under one Shepherd.

I see where this thread is going though so I will exit stage left.
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  #14  
Old Jan 31, '12, 1:30 am
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Default Re: Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NewsTheMan View Post
Pentecostals in various forms are usually Zionists and supporters of Israel in the political sense. They have a very wrong interpretation of scripture in which they believe (basically) that the Jewish people of today are still under the old law and that they must have ancient Isreal as their land and basically turn back the clock 2000 years and live as the ancient Hebrews until the world ends. Of course this is wrong and a Protestant reading of scripture.

The Jews of today are in desperate need of conversion to the Catholic faith. Jesus is the Saviour of the world; of everybody. How could it make sense to say that the Jews didn't need a messiah when indeed the whole of the Old Testament was basically a period in time waiting for the Messiah to come? Makes no sense. In any case, those who call themselves Jews today are not the same Jews of the old covenant - since the temple was destroyed there hasn't been temple sacrifice. The temple has been destroyed, there are no more sacrifices, and no more priesthood - and the messiah has come to establish the new covenant. So around 200AD those who rejected the Messiah wrote down their traditions as the Talmud, and so now they follow the Torah and Talmud. In other words, to cut a long story short, the Jewish faith of today is a man-made religion; and the Catholic faith is the continuation of and fulfillment the old covenant established under God in ancient Israel. As Catholics we are the true and proper successors of Abraham, Moses, Jacob, etc.

This is how it was explained to me but perhaps it is slightly off-target here and there so don't take my word for it
All Israel Will Be Saved

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
(Rom 11:25-32)
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  #15  
Old Jan 31, '12, 5:10 am
Hoxbar Hoxbar is offline
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Default Re: Was Jesus also the Messiah for the Jews?

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Originally Posted by onemangang View Post
Are you referring to John Hagee?

http://youtu.be/5vfKL_yp_LI


I like Prison Planets Alex Jones impersonation of the anti-catholic John Hagee!

http://youtu.be/MBQYrmLuHto
Yes, I was referring to John Hagee. Someone had mentioned it in my Sunday School class too.
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