What's your stance on Israel?

[SwissGuard25]

Originally Posted by rdscheirer

Basically the Arab/Muslims are pissed off because the Jews have a homeland that they made a hundred or maybe close to a thousand times better than the Muslims- well guess what if you want to have a country where individuals thrive go to Isael. If you want a country where your personal worth is s### go to Saudi Arabia, Yemen or Pakistan

I am sure there is more to it than that.
The Israelis did come unexpected and made a state of their own while the Arabs were living their for years under British rule waiting to create their own country but then the Jews came along and made theirs. However that does not Justify Palestinians bombing Israel and THAT does not justify the IDF killing Palestinians civilians.

[jonbhorton]

Originally Posted by John7

where is this in the bible? specifically (i'm familiar with Rom 11)

Gah! Totally didn't mean to write that. I hop-skipped mid-sentence (which I had intended to edit) and went to a different thought while I had it fresh, and it just slipped. I can't go back and edit it, for apparently settings disallow editing 20 minutes after post.

It *SHOULD* have read:

" For IF they shall regain a place which is re-opened due to boasting and forgetting what Israel is, God's chosen, they shall just be claiming what was originally theirs to claim- Messiah."

1Pe 2:9-10 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God

Gentiles being included in the deal and no specific mention of Israel no longer having the ability to claim Messiah means... what exactly? I don't understand the point you are attempting to make. Are you of the school of thought that St. Peter was addressing Jews converted to Christianity? If so, from this site:

It was written to the faithful of "Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia" (i, 1). Were these Christians converted Jews, dispersed among the Gentiles (i, 1), as was held by Origen, Didymus of Alexandria, etc., and is still maintained by Weiss and Kuhl, or were they in great part of pagan origin? The latter is by far the more common and the better opinion (i, 14; ii, 9-10; iii, 6; iv, 3). The argument based on i, 7, proves nothing, while the words "to the strangers dispersed through Pontus" should not be taken in the literal sense of Jews in exile, but in the metaphorical sense of the people of God, Christians, living in exile on earth, far from their true country.

I've never understood this Epistle to be addressed to Jews and only Jews who had converted, but rather the fullness in which all Christians are, despite whatever they were before, now the people of God. In other words, two covenants: one old, one new; when all are in from old or new for the new, totality of the people of God is achieved. Correct?

I feel Galatians works this out well, particularly in regard to the unfortunate application of titles: Greek, Jew. For they were neither, but one in Jesus Christ. Christ clearly says that the Jews will not see Him again until they say, "Blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the Lord".

Furthermore, I see absolutely no reason to not side with Israel given their opposition. Their enemies are our enemies, and despite what we'd otherwise desire, we ARE linked in our enemies' minds.

Now, I realize some people like to paint themselves into a cutesy, little, historically defensible position by quoting seemingly anti-Jewish passages from the early Church Fathers, but that is totally out of context. The Jews are not seeking our heads. They are not encouraging anyone to persecute us, for everyone who would, does- and them too.

If you must hate them, then I suggest loving them. For the most confusing thing for most very hardcore Hassidim is why Christians love the Jews. Particularly the evangelical crowd, but in general, they don't get it.

If the "evil jooooos" are so bent on secret plans to take over the world, I don't see it happening with a measly 13.3 Million. Though of course the anti-Christ might turn out to be of Jewish ancestry, he could easily be a true Jewish person in ancestry, but also be mohammedan. He could be anything.

Here's the thing, I'm not saying the Israelis are perfect little darlings who are getting totally beat up on by the bully. I recognize they have some serious capabilities in terms of military technology. But technology doesn't necessarily win wars when masses of bodies are coming at you, including in urban terrain. Israel, despite all things, is allowed to exist by God. For what reason, I don't know, but I can't see it as a means to slaughter the remaining ones in the land. Is it not true that secular history records the appearance of fire on the Temple Mount when a mohammedan ruler encouraged the Jews to rebuild the Temple, killing some workers?
contd

[jonbhorton]

contd
I have a feeling God allowed the Jews to return to the land to be allowed into a position of finally realizing their mistake, and experiencing a potential threat which would otherwise spell complete eradication should they not plead for Messiah with all the contrition, and faith in Christ they can muster.

Certain things, actual prophecies in the Old Testament have yet to actually come true. Isaiah 17 and the complete destruction of Damascus being one. Those prophecies are in support of Israel, at the defense of Israel. Logic follows then that Israel must at some point be occupied by practitioners of the Old Testament religion as a process of returning them to God, in fulfillment.

According to a friend of mine who is in a PhD program covering Israeli Studies, he feels many of the more studious Jews who want Moshiach have an inkling or even actual belief in Jesus. How many times can you read the same thing without finally seeing a new light on it? Particularly if the man studying it truly was seeking God.

While I neither condone certain Jewish practices, or the otherwise grandiose-and-wild speculations of PPSimmons, I can't help but be a little bit floored, and at the same time not surprised at all when viewing this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eATJ4PRXEJk
Rabbi (highly venerated, old, wise, obsessed with seeing the Messiah of the Jewish people in his last year: reveals the name of the Messiah: Acrostic saying "Concerning the letter abbreviation of Messiah's name, He will lift the people and prove that his word and law are valid." In Hebrew, the note spelled out as an acrostic as: Yehoshua: which is Yeshua in Aramaic, and Jesus as we know Him. So, Rabbi who was pretty much the most respected sage in all of Israel, maybe even the world in his circles, on his death bed says Jesus is the Messiah.

A man who was born in Baghdad(Babylon), returns to the land of Israel, and despite years of study in the opposite direction, his heart sought Christ. And Christ reveals Himself to those who truly seek Him. No rabbi of this man's status would pull a death bed joke over such a name. Never.

Go figure.

Here's the interesting thing:

Ariel Sharon is being kept alive artificially. Of course, given his status, this is likely at all costs and when in hope of living through the chaos. The only way that man is going to die is if someone pulls the plug, his room gets taken out by a rocket, or Israel loses all sources of power, or at least where Sharon is. Dead.

If this man saw Christ, and Christ told him He would return soon after Ariel Sharon dies, that makes me wonder how important this coming onslaught on Israel will be. I'm not saying we should hold Jesus off, were such a stupid thing even possible or thought of, but rather, maybe we shouldn't force His return, were such a stupid thing even possible or thought of- for the timing of God is perfect and timely.

However, I prefer to think of the conversion of the Jewish people as now. Conversion is a process, and this little experiment in the land is their catechesis though they don't necessarily know it. I do not rule out possibilities of their subsequent falling away nationally after the spiritual conversion of those who would convert do. I don't discount anything. Given the enemies they face, anytime called "tomorrow" could be interesting, what with the obvious ramping up to a large-scale war in the region.

[Matt Tiza]

Originally Posted by jonbhorton

And historical facts reveal the mohammedan claim to the land to be shaky at best, intentionally malicious and entirely based on misunderstood Scripture, thus, Scripture is indeed quotable in said context. The geopolitics of it are an outright obfuscation and the made up Palestinian people are the actors in this satanic play.

It is Jewish land. It always has been, it always will be. If the argument is against that, then it is Christian land in the A.D. context. No matter what, it was stolen by the mohammedan factions and has never held a place in mohammedanism except where said place is outright made up, or historically accurate (military victory), because the initial reason was made up..

I'm not sure if it is worth anyone's time to counter an argument that is entirely prejudicial and based on the absence of historical facts. You can quote scripture as all religions will quote scripture to their own ends. You obviously have complete ignorance of the Qur'an (i.e the Mohammedan claim), and nothing but anecdotes (i.e. your yet unnamed PhD friend) and Youtube videos to support your ideas.

When you're ready to actually do your homework, which would include actually reading the Qur'an, studying the history of the Middle East from Biblical times to present (70 AD to 2012 AD), reading Theodor Herzl's books (provided that you even known who he is), then we can have an intelligent debate on the points that I have enumerated below.

No hard feelings, but otherwise, you've really got nothing to go on with your argument. We can shoot the breeze with opinions all day, and it will accomplish nothing.
1). Is anyone here familiar with the history of the land that occurred between the First Jewish-Roman War (73 AD), the Bar Kokhba War (132 - 136 AD), and the founding of the State of Israel in 1948 by David Ben-Gurion, the head of the World Zionist Organization?

2). Does anyone know the distinction between the Jewish faith and Zionism? They are not the same.

3). Has anyone read either of Theodor Herzl's books, "The Jew's State" and "The Old New Land?" Theodor Herzl founded Zionism, the modern day movement of people to occupy Palestine.

4). Does anyone know which countries of origin Theodor Herzl and David Ben-Gurion (born as David Gruen) came from, or why they were motivated to enter Palestine in the first place?

5). About how many years or how many generations would have passed before either had any known ancestors that they could link to the areas now claimed by the state of Israel? Did any known ancestors exist who could claim rights to land in Palestine?

Originally Posted by jonbhorton

I'd actually like you to expound on your genocide of the Canaanites (et al associated tribes), for I have a feeling you're about to step in it.

This addresses question #5. I'd point you to Deuteronomy 7, which you must have already read in your study of the Bible.

"1 When the Lord your God shall have brought you into the land, which you are going in to possess, and shall have destroyed many nations before you, the Hethite, and the Gergezite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, and the Pherezite, and the Hevite, and the Jebusite, seven nations much more numerous than you are, and stronger than you: 2 And the Lord your God shall have delivered them to you, you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no league with them, nor show mercy to them..."

If you go by the Biblical account, it sounds like the Jews weren't the first victims of genocide.

Again, I invite you to take a stab at the questions 1 through 5 that I've posed. I learn a lot from debating online, and I suspect that you will too once you're ready to form an intelligent opinion by doing your homework.

The bottom line is that you don't have to blindly support the modern state of Israel to be a good Catholic (or any Christian for that matter). Jesus came to show us that it doesn't matter where we live in this world because He is the Word of God made flesh. Simply following His example in the Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy is all that we need to know for salvation. Supporting the modern state of Israel has nothing to do with these things. The same is true for Judaism as it does not imply that one is a Zionist. Jews can freely worship in many places around the world and are not required to support the modern state of Israel.

[jonbhorton]

Originally Posted by Matt Tiza

I'm not sure if it is worth anyone's time to counter an argument that is entirely prejudicial and based on the absence of historical facts. You can quote scripture as all religions will quote scripture to their own ends. You obviously have complete ignorance of the Qur'an (i.e the Mohammedan claim), and nothing but anecdotes (i.e. your yet unnamed PhD friend) and Youtube videos to support your ideas.

Chronology dictates. I have three korans in my apartment. 2 will see public burning by the year's end. One is retained for continued study. Of the weighty bookshelf which sags under its load, over half of the books are on the Middle East/Israel, and from all sides of the argument. Most were read in the context of sitting in Samarra and then Baghdad 2 years later. The history of the region was never far from my mind in either setting, nor the current reality. Shay Rabineau is the PhD Candidate. As of last talking to him, he was on the way to Israel for a portion of his PhD program and I have not been able to contact him since. His particular focus of study is on the Israeli National Hiking trail and as such is studying, at a Doctoral Candidate level, the exact issues you bring up. They're without merit in the light you present them. He has studied Germany (and German), Arabs (and Arabic and mohammedanism), etc as they all relate to Israel and what brought about the National Hiking trail. What I relayed to him was the video I linked (which despite being a mere youtube video, has actual links backing it up). His reply was basically along the lines of what I wrote regarding his reply about the video- his understanding is that many of the really devout are coming to an understanding of the truth in a very slow manner. His knowledge of the culture leads him to believe that many are keeping such personal revelations to themselves. If what amounts to a personal interview is anecdotal, fine. Please apply that to all instances in the future of anyone quoting anything. In considering this, your refutation of the video is sad, as it is factual in its information presented. Rabbi Kaduri simply would not have said what he did unless he met and became a believer in Christ near the end of his life. The only other option was he totally lost his mind or was playing a joke. I cannot find evidence for either. The man named Jesus as the Messiah. This spells hope for the future spiritual salvation of all who would accept it in Israel and any Jew worldwide.

When you're ready to actually do your homework, which would include actually reading the Qur'an, studying the history of the Middle East from Biblical times to present (70 AD to 2012 AD), reading Theodor Herzl's books (provided that you even known who he is), then we can have an intelligent debate on the points that I have enumerated below.

Been doing "homework" on this for over 8 years. I have, in the course of that, vacillated between hating and loving Israel, and now, having studied all sides, I have deduced the following:

The nation of Israel, despite any and all seemingly negative aspects in its history or the current actions of the people, must be understood in how it impacts the global reality. The global reality is the global rejection of the Jewish people as having any homeland, and the method which seeks to be the enforcer of this idea is mohammedanism in the form of Iran and the closer Arab enemies of that nation and people.

In the spiritual realm, I find nothing which dictates an automatic divorce of the people from God. I am fully willing to compartmentalize the physical and spiritual in an effort of continued protection of the underdog- of which the Jews are pretty much it.

No hard feelings, but otherwise, you've really got nothing to go on with your argument. We can shoot the breeze with opinions all day, and it will accomplish nothing.


Fine, flesh out your facts. Factoids are about as useless as can be. Practically all the US's Founding Fathers were Masons, many were just outright Deists. That means what in the grand scheme of things? This is the same argument- a colander with no properties or structure to hold the substance it seeks to contain. To condemn Israel's existence in this regard is to condemn that of the US in many regards.

2). Does anyone know the distinction between the Jewish faith and Zionism? They are not the same.

You must define Zionism and Judaism as used. Does one know the difference between Patriotism and Jingoism? There's a fine line. Please define the line as pertains to your examples.

5). About how many years or how many generations would have passed before either had any known ancestors that they could link to the areas now claimed by the state of Israel? Did any known ancestors exist who could claim rights to land in Palestine?

The same could be said for the then straggling population which basically let the land turn to desert and only in small areas didn't have a wasteland; the Arabs who stormed in after the overwhelming numbers affected a mohammedan victory post-Crusades. They have no right to the land either when all things are considered.

[jonbhorton]

Originally Posted by Matt Tiza

This addresses question #5. I'd point you to Deuteronomy 7, which you must have already read in your study of the Bible.

"1 When the Lord your God shall have brought you into the land, which you are going in to possess, and shall have destroyed many nations before you, the Hethite, and the Gergezite, and the Amorrhite, and the Chanaanite, and the Pherezite, and the Hevite, and the Jebusite, seven nations much more numerous than you are, and stronger than you: 2 And the Lord your God shall have delivered them to you, you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no league with them, nor show mercy to them..."

If you go by the Biblical account, it sounds like the Jews weren't the first victims of genocide.

So... in a passage about slaying all the inhabitants of the land (enemies of God and the Israelite fledgling nation) as commanded by God, you use this to bring up what point?
Are you proposing a homeland for baal worship? You're not actually addressing Israel as it stands, and this is a laughable attempt at making the point I can only surmise you're trying to make. That God commanded such a thing in regard to the promises to Abraham actually hurts your position. I have absolutely no idea what point you're actually trying to make in regards to the eradication of a people at God's command in a historical context. It would be more apropos to use a more modern example such as Manifest Destiny- a concept which, again, places the US in a position to keep its mouth shut.

[jonbhorton]

Originally Posted by Matt Tiza

Again, I invite you to take a stab at the questions 1 through 5 that I've posed. I learn a lot from debating online, and I suspect that you will too once you're ready to form an intelligent opinion by doing your homework.

I don't know how to put this other than the direction you are taking very complex issues in a simple manner leads to the excuse of letting every Jew in Israel be killed by default of a hands-off policy regarding their defense.

The bottom line is that you don't have to blindly support the modern state of Israel to be a good Catholic (or any Christian for that matter). Jesus came to show us that it doesn't matter where we live in this world because He is the Word of God made flesh. Simply following His example in the Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy is all that we need to know for salvation. Supporting the modern state of Israel has nothing to do with these things. The same is true for Judaism as it does not imply that one is a Zionist. Jews can freely worship in many places around the world and are not required to support the modern state of Israel.

Who says I solely support the state of Israel for this reason? Who says I even disagree?
I support Israel for a multitude of reasons. The least of which is the idea that somehow the Jewish method as it exists now is even right in terms of worship. I don't hold that position at all. I do hold the position that I will die fighting before letting a second Holocaust happen. I do hold the position that the mohammedan scourge has no claim over the land. I do hold the position that while there are descendants of the original Israelites in the land, they largely converted to mohammedanism, and thus, renig on all rights to the land as promised by God- for they outright rejected Judaism and Christianity in accepting mohammed. I do hold the position that you are setting up an argument which only has one recourse in its ultimate influence- the eradication of the Jewish people. You can take that mentality back to under whatever rock it crawled from.

You're attempting to throw out factoids and never really explain the actual question of modern Israel as it stands. I did that early on as it relates to the Arabs- of which, the Palestinian moniker and association is more modern than the Jewish state in its present condition- less defensible as well in light of the impact. If you insist on going into areas which are factually correct but misrepresentations of the overall reality, I have no interest in arguing with you.

"How does the proposition of Theodor Herzl relate to modern Israel, and under scrutiny, what ways is modern Israel in conflict with this proposition?" might be more appropriate. Merely stating the obvious with no defined direction after is just... ridiculous.

If the entirety of the Jewish people, particularly Israel, are pretty much damned unless they acknowledge Christ, I have no issue with that- for it's God's call. I'm just simply unwilling to let them be outright slaughtered if I can help it. I'm sorry you are so willing to play the part of the Jews as they related to the early persecution of the Church.

I view Israel as a secular nation in its secular means. I view Israel as a potential spiritual goldmine. Neither of which, in all their history and current actions, necessitates the position you hold.

I've largely ignored your insults to my intelligence and "homework". I'll say this:

If the mohammedan reality didn't exist, you might actually have a point. That individual Christians in Europe let this travesty of the Holocaust happen is incorrigible and all but through the power and mercy of God- unforgivable.

Pope Pius XII went to great lengths to save Jews from slaughter. I'll be damned if I let their grandchildren get slaughtered because some dude who died in 1904 came up with the idea of the Jews just having a place of their own. I'll be damned if we see another influx of Jewish refugees and turn them back to a certain death at the docks. I'll be damned if I don't understand that when their enemies are done with them, their enemies are coming for us. If the Jewish people insist on acting as a speed bump on the path to the West's destruction, I'll make sure that speed bump knocks the Arab war machine of its tracks.

I can find a multitude of reasons to support Israel. None of which are in conflict with Church teaching, and none of which legitimize their opinions of Christ, nor which legitimize the pointless rabbinic method of worship they currently employ, nor which legitimizes the futile attempts to reconstruct and start OT style worship in a rebuilt temple.

You're proposing an end game that is ultimately land for peace which will not happen, and at the expense of at least 7 Million. You want to see a bad day happen for Christendom? Let the people of Israel be wiped out. The Christians won't be far behind in meeting the Arab "sword".

I've read the historical anti-semitic arguments against Israel, and none of that really puts impact on the current condition and reality.

I stand with Israel unequivocally.

[Geist]

I would like to see both sides live in peace and prosperity...much of the Palestinian malaise can be attributed to poverty, which Israeli policies do contribute too.

However, Israel was founded by terrorists like the Irgun and Sten gangs, it was founded with murder and terrorism and death, can a tree ever outgrow its own roots?

Despite my generally positive views about the Jewish people and the idea of Israel...in its beginning it chose the sword instead of the handshake and it doesn't surprise me it is the way it is now.

[Eric Hyom]

I wonder how the Jewish people regard some of their scripture.

Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.


Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

[hannajomar]

Both sides have done wrong things, but I at least trust Israel. They don't use terrorism or dishonest tactics that their enemies tend to use. If Israel says something, I believe them.
They'll say something along the lines of, "if you don't stop launching grenades into our place, we're going to drop a bomb on such-and-such place on such-and-such day." And they do it.
I became a fan of Netanyahu when I saw him in an interview when he didn't want to answer a specific question. He answered, "I'm not going to answer that." That response just blew my mind away. I thought he needs to come to America and teach our politicians about speaking plainly.

[jonbhorton]

Originally Posted by Eric Hyom

I wonder how the Jewish people regard some of their scripture.

Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.


Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

Well, given that the Israeli Arabs prefer living in Israel, and the Palestinians are hopping mad and lobbing rockets every chance they get despite actually being supplied multiple services by Israel, or that originate in Israel, despite having already declared war on Israel: I'd say they're doing a fine job of working out the implementation of those scriptures.

[cjmclark]

Originally Posted by hannajomar

Both sides have done wrong things, but I at least trust Israel. They don't use terrorism or dishonest tactics that their enemies tend to use. If Israel says something, I believe them.
They'll say something along the lines of, "if you don't stop launching grenades into our place, we're going to drop a bomb on such-and-such place on such-and-such day." And they do it.
I became a fan of Netanyahu when I saw him in an interview when he didn't want to answer a specific question. He answered, "I'm not going to answer that." That response just blew my mind away. I thought he needs to come to America and teach our politicians about speaking plainly.

How would you define "terrorism or dishonest tactics"? I ask because you can find an extensive list of assassinations credited to the Mossad (Israel's intelligence service) and to the Israeli armed forces here. Note that it includes such things as car bombs, parcel bombs, et c. which under most circumstances would generally be considered terrorist tactics. Though I'm sure that our pro-Israel crowd here can justify/rationalize assassination, which last time I checked is a fancy word for "murder."

I personally find the often unthinking and unquestioning support of Israel by Christians here in America to be disconcerting. The current Israeli state is a purely secular one, and I find the notion that they are operating with some sort of divine mandate to be unlikely. Additionally, they have bombed our fellow Christians in the Middle East with little to no compunction, and would not hesitate to do it again.

Semi-related hypothetical for my fellow Americans - how would you feel if the UN decided to turn over the governance of the United States and ownership of all its land to the Native American tribes? Would you give up and be "re-settled" quietly, or would you decide that you really like where you've been living your whole life and maybe you'd want to stay (and fight to do so)?

I will now pause to allow jonbhorton to interject with his obligatory "Israel's surrounded by enemies on all sides, so anything goes!" response.

[jonbhorton]

Originally Posted by cjmclark

I will now pause to allow jonbhorton to interject with his obligatory "Israel's surrounded by enemies on all sides, so anything goes!" response.

Interesting charts, especially the oh-so-contested Jerusalem population comparison.

Israel: http://israelipalestinian.procon.org...=000636#chart1

Jerusalem: http://israelipalestinian.procon.org...=000636#chart2

The comparative trends in the steadfast Christian population vs the occupation numbers game between the Jews and the mohammedan bunch is interesting.

The mohammedan claim on Jerusalem in any regard is absolutely false outside of military conquering, of which, it was the aggressor. If it's the "winner take all" mentality you want to foster in the mohammedan enemy, I beg you to reconsider. For they will take that to heart and stop at no horrible means to achieve the end of us in a system of dhimmitude, dead, or outright converted.

If it was "anything goes", Israel would have already gone. Israel is massively patient in how it conducts military operations in regard to HAMAS activity.

The "Palestinian" insistence at targeting Israel's non-military population by suicide bombings and other means has brought on the barriers, etc.

So the HAMAS/muslim brotherhood cabal makes "ceasefire" promises and then sends in a suicide bomber or lights some rockets, and then claims it was "rogue elements" of an unknown faction and HAMAS maintained the ceasefire. Convenient.

People in the West have no experience with Arab-mohammedan views on deals with enemies. They're liars through and through. They won't hold a deal. And they have no religious reason to say otherwise. What do you do with an enemy like that?

This is mohammedanism in its eschatological end: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVvCo...2A5EF0DF5C2DC5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL...ture=endscreen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg3m3...eature=related

Again, to forsake the Jews in this position, is to bring on full on mohammedan persecution of Christendom. The immediate and awful subjugation of the Christians in the land, for right now they are tolerated for propaganda purposes. In the end, our choice will remain in the context of mohammedanism: convert, or die. Dhimmitude only extends so long. Their eschatology has us watching Jesus learning to pray from their Mahdi. Etcetera.

To not support Israel on this issue is to bring on our own destruction, and the unbridled fervor of men possessed to make war at all costs, in all manners, with no rules, and women and children are not necessarily spared rape, mutilation, torture, forced conversion, etc.

This is a question of the direction you want to see civilization go. It is not a mere question of the obviously checkered Jewish past in terms of what individual Jews have done, nor of movements present in their meager numbers.

The next step in the plan, once the Jews are done for, is to go after Christianity, or, at the same time in the "great satan": the USA.

In the interest of not delving into a religious discussion, for that would be far too emotional and unclear, I'll prefer to stick with the purely dire threat in the secular realm, which bring on religious consequence: now. This is all we should be concerned with given the reality: now. Not then. Now.

[Keith_W_OR_USA]

Originally Posted by followingtheway

I've seen a couple videos about conflict between the two lately. Both sides have convincing arguments. Who do you support?

I don't support either side and I don't see why so many Americans are concerned about Israel. Why is Israel more important then Armenia?

[chosen people]

1 Maccabees 15:33-34

33And Simon answered him, and said to him: We have neither taken other men's land, neither do we hold that which is other men's: but the inheritance of our fathers, which was for some time unjustly possessed by our enemies.

34But we having opportunity claim the inheritance of our fathers

It just never gets old