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  #166  
Old Feb 13, '12, 12:51 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
I'm very confused. I do not understand what you or John are talking about. As far as I can tell, John made up some rules for me, asked why I accept them, I said I don't accept them, and then you say:

"That's a typical liberal response!"

Oh... maybe it is. But I'm not really all that liberal, and I don't see how my response has anything to do with my politics... and, well, I'm just very confused.
lol it started with your sarcastic post in response to sedonamn's post here:

Quote:
Rule 1: Let society evolve without government intervention.
Rule 2: If you don't like Rule 1, see Rule 1.
John took you as being serious and based his responses on that. You in turn thought he had made up the rules thus the confusion since you were both arguing about rules neither of agreed on.

I'm still confused as to whether you have an rules or broad reaching philosophy you latch onto, or if you just have a lot of jumbled up rules that you think are good ideas. Do you have any cognitive all encompassing philosophy or do you just kind of shoot as you see it lol? You have spouted off a couple mantra's but I have not seen anything all encompassing.
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  #167  
Old Feb 13, '12, 1:07 pm
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

exnihilo,

I think you and I and most people can say what a healthy relationship and healthy environment for children looks like, and while there may be some small differences, the basic picture will be the same.

The reason homosexuality was declared as a psychological illness was that it was perceived to carry with it many trappings that would exclude someone in such a lifestyle from a healthy relationship or from making for a healthy environment.

Anything deeper than that, well, I am very impressed that people take the time and think about and write about these things, but I don't have the time and intelligence to delve too deeply.
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  #168  
Old Feb 13, '12, 1:12 pm
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Nate13 View Post
lol it started with your sarcastic post in response to sedonamn's post here: ... *post*... John took you as being serious and based his responses on that. You in turn thought he had made up the rules thus the confusion since you were both arguing about rules neither of agreed on.
Oh, ha ha! It was a misunderstanding. My fault. I apologize.

Quote:
I'm still confused as to whether you have an rules or broad reaching philosophy you latch onto, or if you just have a lot of jumbled up rules that you think are good ideas. Do you have any cognitive all encompassing philosophy or do you just kind of shoot as you see it lol? You have spouted off a couple mantra's but I have not seen anything all encompassing.
For some of the most basic questions, yes, I have a broad reaching philosophy. I do have an underlying metaphysics. I'm pretty-much a Spinozist (although I do diverge from him in some places). And I have a naturalist interpretation of Spinoza, so that makes me a naturalist. I do believe certain abstract things have objective existence apart from the observable universe, such as mathematical and moral constructs, God (if he exists), and possibly other similar sorts of beings or things.

My ethics is very-much Kantian Deontological, if by those strange words you mean that I only have one basic moral rule to be applied to all situations: that people should be treated as ends in themselves and not merely as means to an end.

But when you get to politics or theories about human nature, or philosophy of science, and this sort of thing, I am very eclectic, and I just choose what works. There's no coherent system, and mostly that's because, when I am exposed to coherent systems, I either don't understand them or I don't think that they are very accurate to reality and/or to my objectives.

There you go. Interesting question.
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  #169  
Old Feb 13, '12, 1:28 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
For some of the most basic questions, yes, I have a broad reaching philosophy. I do have an underlying metaphysics. I'm pretty-much a Spinozist (although I do diverge from him in some places). And I have a naturalist interpretation of Spinoza, so that makes me a naturalist. I do believe certain abstract things have objective existence apart from the observable universe, such as mathematical and moral constructs, God (if he exists), and possibly other similar sorts of beings or things.

My ethics is very-much Kantian Deontological, if by those strange words you mean that I only have one basic moral rule to be applied to all situations: that people should be treated as ends in themselves and not merely as means to an end.

But when you get to politics or theories about human nature, or philosophy of science, and this sort of thing, I am very eclectic, and I just choose what works. There's no coherent system, and mostly that's because, when I am exposed to coherent systems, I either don't understand them or I don't think that they are very accurate to reality and/or to my objectives.

There you go. Interesting question.
lol we are never going to reach an accord then because Catholic beliefs are based on a belief in the philosophy of natural law and you apparently don't give much credence to the idea of human nature. I encourage you to take a look into natural law from more authoritative teaching sources. It may help you understand the Catholic position on things a lot better even if you don't understand it. Natural law in and of itself though is lacking without a belief in a higher authority that has put natural law in place. The Catechism puts it this way:

Quote:
The natural law is written and engraved in the soul of each and every man, because it is human reason ordaining him to do good and forbidding him to sin . . . But this command of human reason would not have the force of law if it were not the voice and interpreter of a higher reason to which our spirit and our freedom must be submitted.5
You may have already seen this from another thread, but here is a summary of what the Church has to say on natural law.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a1.htm
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  #170  
Old Feb 13, '12, 1:38 pm
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Nate13 View Post
lol we are never going to reach an accord then because Catholic beliefs are based on a belief in the philosophy of natural law and you apparently don't give much credence to the idea of human nature. I encourage you to take a look into natural law from more authoritative teaching sources. It may help you understand the Catholic position on things a lot better even if you don't understand it. Natural law in and of itself though is lacking without a belief in a higher authority that has put natural law in place.
Thanks for the suggestion. I hadn't even heard of natural law, pretty-much, until I saw this forums. The sorts of words attached to natural law I remember from University were things like "outdated scholastic medieval arbitrary notions about morality based on a theory of human nature invented by Aristotle and mythologized in the Bible; invented before philosophy really got started." Thanks to this forum I don't think that's true anymore. But I still don't understand very much about it. It's definitely something I'll read more about over the next few months.
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  #171  
Old Feb 13, '12, 2:11 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
Thanks for the suggestion. I hadn't even heard of natural law, pretty-much, until I saw this forums. The sorts of words attached to natural law I remember from University were things like "outdated scholastic medieval arbitrary notions about morality based on a theory of human nature invented by Aristotle and mythologized in the Bible; invented before philosophy really got started." Thanks to this forum I don't think that's true anymore. But I still don't understand very much about it. It's definitely something I'll read more about over the next few months.
A lot of the time you can find free talks online from Catholic sources that talk about it as well.

Of course they thought natural law was:

"outdated scholastic medieval arbitrary notions about morality based on a theory of human nature invented by Aristotle and mythologized in the Bible; invented before philosophy really got started."

because they would also describe the Catholic Church the same way
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  #172  
Old Feb 13, '12, 8:01 pm
exnihilo exnihilo is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
Your questions, while very interesting, are mostly philosophy questions. (The basic method: Ask "what does X mean?" "It means X1, X2, X3" "What does X1 X2 X3 mean?" "They mean "X11, X12, X13, X21, etc..." "What do "X11, X12... etc. mean?" and so forth.
Yes they are philosophy questions. And yes once you answer one it can lead to still more. But this is important to clear thinking. Clear thinking is a good thing and a very necessary thing if we are talking about major issues of culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
I think you and I and most people can say what a healthy relationship and healthy environment for children looks like, and while there may be some small differences, the basic picture will be the same.
I disagree. I have a pretty high standard for healthy. In observing pop culture and what other people find acceptable I think the differences are pretty serious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
The reason homosexuality was declared as a psychological illness was that it was perceived to carry with it many trappings that would exclude someone in such a lifestyle from a healthy relationship or from making for a healthy environment.
I dont know much about the history of psychology but I accept your understanding in part. I think there was also the idea that the behavior was by its nature unhealthy. Many other sexual behaviors were considered unhealthy. As more and more people did them and it became more acceptable opinions changed. All this shows is that a degraded society is degraded.
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  #173  
Old Feb 14, '12, 9:13 am
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by exnihilo View Post
I disagree. I have a pretty high standard for healthy. In observing pop culture and what other people find acceptable I think the differences are pretty serious.
At the risk of derailing the conversation for a short time, because this is very interesting to me...

What are your standards for, say, the εὐδαιμονία, or the genuine happiness that comes from the virtuous life?

I want to see if these are so different from what I hold and what I suspect most people hold (and admittedly; many pop-stars sell themselves as the 'bad-boys' and bad-girls', meaning that they acknowledge that their lifestyles are far from the ideal; I would not let Lady Gaga babysit my children).
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  #174  
Old Feb 14, '12, 11:07 am
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vsedriver vsedriver is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post

Maybe this is reckless, but I think it's the best way to find out for sure if something is going to work or not. If there's a good reason for not doing something, I'll be against it. But if there's no apparent good reason for or against doing something, I err on the side of trying it.

Maybe we'll learn something.
What if my apparent good reason isn't an apparent good reason to you? I err on the side of caution, especially when you are playing with people's lives. Age will do that to you.
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  #175  
Old Feb 14, '12, 11:29 am
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vsedriver vsedriver is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

[quote=Samuel Monosov;8955812]

Quote:
I think you and I and most people can say what a healthy relationship and healthy environment for children looks like, and while there may be some small differences, the basic picture will be the same.
I think having a mommy and a daddy is part of the basic picture.

Once again no one wants to address the RIGHT of a child to experience a mommy and a daddy. In other words, as long as the child is well cared for, that is all that is needed. Essentially you can now say that a good day care can raise a child just as well as the biological mother. Mommies aren't necessary and neither are daddies. Kids get nothing unique from having a parent of both genders. If being raised by opposite genders wasn't the ideal then you wouldn't need two sexes to produce a child.

Quote:
The reason homosexuality was declared as a psychological illness was that it was perceived to carry with it many trappings that would exclude someone in such a lifestyle from a healthy relationship or from making for a healthy environment.
Homosexuality was declared a psychological illness because it was a disorder of the sex drive.
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  #176  
Old Feb 14, '12, 11:40 am
exnihilo exnihilo is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
What are your standards for, say, the εὐδαιμονία, or the genuine happiness that comes from the virtuous life?
Doing that which is truly good for you leads to happiness. That which is good for you would generally be traditional morality - doing virtuous things and abstaining from bad things. But the highest good would be to know God and to do His will out of love for God. From this disposition comes knowledge, desire, and the capacity to find happiness.
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  #177  
Old Feb 15, '12, 6:22 am
Gidras05 Gidras05 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
Thanks for the suggestion. I hadn't even heard of natural law, pretty-much, until I saw this forums. The sorts of words attached to natural law I remember from University were things like "outdated scholastic medieval arbitrary notions about morality based on a theory of human nature invented by Aristotle and mythologized in the Bible; invented before philosophy really got started." Thanks to this forum I don't think that's true anymore. But I still don't understand very much about it. It's definitely something I'll read more about over the next few months.
You know, there are a GREAT deal of books from much more credible scientists and philosophers and theologians on this topic. I'm sure there is great insight to find in this forum as well, but it is always a good idea to do more reading to ascertain a greater understanding in a broader spectrum.

I think a very good starting point for Natural Law in how it extends to a belief in God is Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. From there you essentially dive off into a large amount other books that tackle this subject in much much greater depth.
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  #178  
Old Feb 15, '12, 8:03 am
Jeremiah1278 Jeremiah1278 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
Alright, the contraception question I asked you answered. That made some sense, so I can imagine why you don't like gay activity or why you don't do gay marriage.

But what about people who aren't Catholic? They get divorced and do all kinds of other things that you don't agree with. Why can't two men get together and the state can call it marriage or whatever else they like? They do this sort of thing anyway about divorce, with a lot less arguments and protests from you guys.

Why should you care if other religions want to recognize gay marriage?

What about gay adoption? Why not allow it for limited cases, to see what effect it has, and if its a good idea overall, or not?
I like this discussion you've created, Samuel. In the U.S., I see two separate arguments to be had about gay marriage. (1) The legal argument about whether or not it violatates the Constitution to limit marriage to men and women. (2) And the moral argument about whether states should expand civil marriage recognition to same-sex couples. I think I know the answer to (1), and it's sort of out of the hands of everyone except our supreme court. (2) is where the rubber meets the road for an American citizen, I think. More state legislatures will introduce laws expanding civil marriage rights.

I see this and I don't conclude that same sex marriage rights are going to destroy the moral fabric of society. I see this and conclude, society already has reached the tipping point where it no longer values the procreative union between man and woman the way it used to. The decay has already happened when you don't see the difference between same-sex couples and traditional marriage. Straight people. Good, loving, straight Catholic people don't see any difference between their relationship and a same-sex relationship. To think that the relationships are equal, they had to jump through some sort of intellectual hoops to conclude there's nothing special about two members of the species selecting each other for reproduction, sharing each other's genetics and raising the offspring. I think this is an enormous mistake. But society is changing. So the states are free to have their laws mirror this change in values. Again, I think it's a mistake. But it's at least more honest than trying to find current marriage laws unconstitutional.

Maybe I'm over stating things. Maybe people still, deep-down, know that the man-woman-child raising family unit is special. But maybe they've just hit a point where they feel so bad for the discrimination against gay couples, they don't want our civil laws to draw a distinction between the two anymore. Again, I think this is mistaken, but I'm just trying to figure out where people stand. Perhaps they believe that recognizing same-sex couples in this way will over time eliminate much of the discrimination the GLBT community deals with. And eliminating some of that pain for others is more important to them than continuing to use the civil law to set aside marriage (real marriage) as something important to the community.

Shoot, I don't know.
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  #179  
Old Feb 15, '12, 9:46 am
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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You know, there are a GREAT deal of books from much more credible scientists and philosophers and theologians on this topic. I'm sure there is great insight to find in this forum as well, but it is always a good idea to do more reading to ascertain a greater understanding in a broader spectrum.
I agree completely. So that's why I'm reading... I read slowly.
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  #180  
Old Feb 15, '12, 9:48 am
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by vsedriver View Post
What if my apparent good reason isn't an apparent good reason to you?
Then come November, we might vote differently.

Except that I'm a selfish, selfish person. And I'm a scientist. And Republicans fund science better.
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