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  #46  
Old Feb 5, '12, 11:43 am
St Francis St Francis is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
There is a Protestant philosopher named Francis Schaeffer, who predicted many of the serious problems in our society, such as abortion, the destruction of the nuclear family, broken homes, failure in our education system, rampant war and economic instability, government over-control, etc. etc. He predicted them without even passing reference to birth control. He saw these things as a consequence to secularism and a loss of meaning in academia, the arts, music and day-to-day life.]

In spite of all the problems in our age, I would rather be alive now than at any other time in history. If I could choose another time to live, I'd bet on the future. Things seem better now than they ever have been, in most ways.

So the challenge would be to (1) show what the consequence of contraception are supposed to be, (2) show that these things really did happen and (3) really are connected to contraception, and not some other cause, and (4) show that these are really bad things.
I am explaining the Catholic point of view, but I do not intend to debate. This is the Catholic point of view, and since we did not conduct a double-blind experiment, no, we cannot "prove" a lot of these things.



Quote:
Cars without oil do not work. Marriages without children do work. Therefore procreation is not to marriage as oil is to cars. If it were, then marriages without children would be worse than inferior. They would all be failures.
I did not intend the analogy to relate to marriage; I intended to relate it to proofs and the necessity for them.
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  #47  
Old Feb 5, '12, 2:32 pm
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Samuel63 Samuel63 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post

So the challenge would be to (1) show what the consequence of contraception are supposed to be, (2) show that these things really did happen and (3) really are connected to contraception, and not some other cause, and (4) show that these are really bad things.

Can this be done?
Contraception, over a few generations, eliminates non-faithful from the gift of life. Over time, orthodox, traditional factions gain the upper hand in the population. The muslim population in europe is an example. Is this a bad thing? When cultures contracept themselves into a minority willingly, it represents surrender in a manner. This has a very negative impact on the younger generation. This younger group sees the cowardice and loses faith.
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  #48  
Old Feb 5, '12, 4:36 pm
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twoangels twoangels is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
Alright, the contraception question I asked you answered. That made some sense, so I can imagine why you don't like gay activity or why you don't do gay marriage.

But what about people who aren't Catholic? They get divorced and do all kinds of other things that you don't agree with. Why can't two men get together and the state can call it marriage or whatever else they like? They do this sort of thing anyway about divorce, with a lot less arguments and protests from you guys.

Why should you care if other religions want to recognize gay marriage?

What about gay adoption? Why not allow it for limited cases, to see what effect it has, and if its a good idea overall, or not?
We want to stand up for what marriage is and we want future generations to not be confused about what marriage is. That said, I personally think that making a huge issue about gay marriage is like walking through the ruins of a city that has been bombed and freaking out over some people kicking over a pile of bricks.
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  #49  
Old Feb 5, '12, 10:20 pm
cformosa4 cformosa4 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Samuel63 View Post
Monogamous gay relationship? What data and sources can you cite that indicate a majority of gay couples have remained monogamous for their entire life?
Oh my goodness. I feel sorry for you. Please educate yourself.

Every gay couple I know is completely monogamous.... I know more straight couples that have cheated on each other than I do gay couples. Most gay men are far more compassionate, loyal and sensitive than many many many straight men.
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  #50  
Old Feb 5, '12, 11:09 pm
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

My conclusions based on your arguments and answers to my questions.

From a Catholic framework:

It is rational for Catholics to consider contraception a sin.
It is rational for Catholics to consider gay relationships sinful.
It is rational for Catholics to oppose gay marriage for Catholics

It is irrational for Catholics to oppose gay marriage and adoption for non-Catholics at this time.

Thank you for helping me reach these conclusions. These also help inform my political perspective and activity. Based on the results of my questions so far, I will add my name to petitions to oppose HHS contraception mandates because these violate Catholic religious freedom.

I will also support the closing of Catholic adoption agencies that refuse to adopt to gays, because all the evidence presented in this forums and elsewhere suggests that refusal to adopt to gays is simple prejudice, and is not rationally supported by Catholic religious tenets.

Thank you again for your help in this, and please, feel free to continue the conversation. It may be of some help to others.
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  #51  
Old Feb 5, '12, 11:43 pm
cformosa4 cformosa4 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
My conclusions based on your arguments and answers to my questions.

From a Catholic framework:

It is rational for Catholics to consider contraception a sin.
It is rational for Catholics to consider gay relationships sinful.
It is rational for Catholics to oppose gay marriage for Catholics

It is irrational for Catholics to oppose gay marriage and adoption for non-Catholics at this time.

Thank you for helping me reach these conclusions. These also help inform my political perspective and activity. Based on the results of my questions so far, I will add my name to petitions to oppose HHS contraception mandates because these violate Catholic religious freedom.

I will also support the closing of Catholic adoption agencies that refuse to adopt to gays, because all the evidence presented in this forums and elsewhere suggests that refusal to adopt to gays is simple prejudice, and is not rationally supported by Catholic religious tenets.

Thank you again for your help in this, and please, feel free to continue the conversation. It may be of some help to others.
Thanks Samuel, a nice summary.

I agree "It is irrational for Catholics to oppose gay marriage and adoption for non-Catholics"

However,
It is IRRATIONAL for Catholics to consider gay relationships sinful.
It is IRRATIONAL for Catholics to oppose gay marriage for Catholics
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  #52  
Old Feb 6, '12, 7:57 am
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cformosa4 View Post
Thanks Samuel, a nice summary.

I agree "It is irrational for Catholics to oppose gay marriage and adoption for non-Catholics"

However,
It is IRRATIONAL for Catholics to consider gay relationships sinful.
It is IRRATIONAL for Catholics to oppose gay marriage for Catholics
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a1.htm
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  #53  
Old Feb 6, '12, 9:14 am
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vsedriver vsedriver is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

[quote=Samuel Monosov;8916468]
Quote:
Do these statistics adjust for wealth? Are the children of wealthy single parents more likely to be poor than the children of wealthy straight couples?
yes, the statistics show that children in a two parent family have a higher income than when their parents divorce and the children end up living in a single parent home. Divorce promotes poverty. Single mothers also promote poverty.

Quote:
Currently, there are no complete statistics about the impact of being raised by gay couples. In the next decade or so there will be such statistics. If the results show that the children adopted to gay couples are worse off than the children of straight couples, then gay couples should not be able to adopt.
We should not be experimenting with the lives of children to prove a social concept. The best environment for the raising of children is a heterosexual biological family. The second best is a heterosexual adoptive family. Children are entitled to have the experience of having both a mother (femininity) and a father (masculinity). They should not be treated as something to fulfill and adult's desire. It is cruel to put a child in the position of having to ask "where is my mommy/daddy?". When it comes to child care we should be setting our standards high, not lowering them.

Quote:
If, however, the results show that the effects of adoption by gay couples and straight couples are roughly the same, then the adoption should continue.
If we can show that the effects of being raised in an institution/foster home is roughly the same then we should continue to raise children in institutions/foster homes.

Quote:
If adoption is really about the child, and if the child is equally well off being adopted by gay couples as straight couples, and better off than if the child were not adopted at all, what good reason would there be for refusing adoption to gay couples?
They can't possibly be equal since a gay couple can't provide the same experience that a heterosexual couple can. So gay adoption will always be a lessor ideal. But once made legal then adoption agencies would be force to treat gay adoptions as equal to straight adoptions. Hence the children loose a right to satisfy an adult,s desire.

But I'm not surprised that people have trouble with this concept. We have been taught in our society that men and women are interchangeable and that there is nothing unique to femininity or masculinity and that quality child care is the same as parental child care.

Hasn't anyone ever read "Brave New World'?
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  #54  
Old Feb 6, '12, 9:16 am
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vsedriver vsedriver is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
How do you know it won't be good for society?

How do you know contraception is bad for society?
check the divorce and abortion statistics prior to the use of the pill. The pill lead directly to no fault divorce and the destruction of marriage and to the use of abortion as a back up for failed birth control.
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  #55  
Old Feb 6, '12, 10:44 am
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by vsedriver View Post
check the divorce and abortion statistics prior to the use of the pill. The pill lead directly to no fault divorce and the destruction of marriage and to the use of abortion as a back up for failed birth control.
Check divorce and abortion stats prior to the development of the Barbie doll.

Contraception was used as an excuse for abortion in Roe vs Wade, but the effective strategy in the case was the privacy afforded by a woman's body. It would seem to make more sense to blame privacy and Barbie dolls for abortion than to blame contraception.

I am unaware of even a superficial connection between contraception and divorce rates.
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  #56  
Old Feb 6, '12, 11:31 am
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by vsedriver View Post
yes, the statistics show that children in a two parent family have a higher income than when their parents divorce and the children end up living in a single parent home. Divorce promotes poverty. Single mothers also promote poverty.
Or maybe poverty contributes to the number of single mothers? I suspect it works both ways. American subcultures that do not value marriage as highly are also those subcultures that suffer from poverty; both are probably at least partially a result of a lack of effective sex education and ethics that is far more common in wealthier segments of the population.

Quote:
When it comes to child care we should be setting our standards high, not lowering them.
A very healthy gay couple may be a much better standard for the child than a less healthy straight couple. Time will tell whether gay-straight distinction matters for the adoption environment. I do not assume any result; any result is possible. We will find out in the next few decades. Until then, there is no evidence that healthy gay couples will provide worse environments than healthy straight couples, so there is no reason not to experiment.

Quote:
If we can show that the effects of being raised in an institution/foster home is roughly the same then we should continue to raise children in institutions/foster homes?
If it could be established that institutions made better homes than the homes of adoptive parents, then children shouldn't be adopted out to parents. They should all be kept in institutions. As you have already said, this isn't about the parents. This is about the child.

It turns out, however, that both institutions and single parents provide on average worse environments than the environment a straight couple can provide. This has been established by multiple studies (although it is open for review). The results suggest that institutions are the worst environments for children of the three options. Some states believe that single parents are not sufficiently worse than straight couples to forbid adopting to them.

Quote:
They can't possibly be equal since a gay couple can't provide the same experience that a heterosexual couple can.
I see no evidence that this will be the case.

If this is true, then the studies will show it. Adoption to gays can be discontinued at this time.
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  #57  
Old Feb 6, '12, 7:36 pm
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vsedriver vsedriver is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post

I see no evidence that this will be the case.

If this is true, then the studies will show it. Adoption to gays can be discontinued at this time.
explain to me how two gay men can provide a child the experience of having a mommy. Or are you saying that having the experience of a mommy is not important to a child? Does it have any intrinsic relevance or value in human child rearing or human experience?

If a rich, healthy gay couple want to adopt an infant should they be chosen over a poor, healthy straight couple?
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  #58  
Old Feb 6, '12, 7:46 pm
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vsedriver vsedriver is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
I will also support the closing of Catholic adoption agencies that refuse to adopt to gays, because all the evidence presented in this forums and elsewhere suggests that refusal to adopt to gays is simple prejudice, and is not rationally supported by Catholic religious tenets.
.
Not rationally supported by Catholic religious tenets? or are you saying Catholic religious tenets aren't rational? They may not be 'rational' to you but they are very rational to Catholics. The fact that they aren't rational to you is mind boggling.

So Catholics and other religions are to be marginalized in their religious freedom even though the Constitution sets protections? Outlawing Catholic adoption agencies is against religious freedom to minister to the public need. Catholics are bound by a command of Jesus to minister to the needy not just minister to Catholics. Being an orphan means you are needy.

This is another example of the loss of religious freedom in the US today.
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  #59  
Old Feb 6, '12, 8:05 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel Monosov View Post
Check divorce and abortion stats prior to the development of the Barbie doll.
I think your Barbie Doll example is somewhat weak considering there are very few reasons to believe that would break up a marriage. Contraception has to do with sex which most people would consider an essential part of making their marriage work. Your point however is that you only see this as a correlation, and your not seeing how its a cause.

Let me ask you this first though. Do you believe the man in a marriage being addicted to porn and masturbation can cause a great many problems in a marriage?

Quote:
Contraception was used as an excuse for abortion in Roe vs Wade, but the effective strategy in the case was the privacy afforded by a woman's body. It would seem to make more sense to blame privacy and Barbie dolls for abortion than to blame contraception.
Quote:
I am unaware of even a superficial connection between contraception and divorce rates.
Its actually not that hard to show there is something to the correlation. All you have to do is look at multiple countries and see the trend repeated. The more prevalent contraception is in a country you can count on three things occurring:

1) Less men and women get married and wait longer to get married if they do
2) Higher divorce rates
3) Fertility rates quickly dropping below replacement level

You also have to compare divorce rate to marriage rate in a country to see the trend. Some countries appear to have lower divorce rates only because they have so many fewer people actually even getting married to begin with. That is the situation in much of Western Europe.
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  #60  
Old Feb 7, '12, 11:45 am
Samuel Monosov Samuel Monosov is offline
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Default Re: Why not gay marriage?

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Originally Posted by vsedriver View Post
Are you saying that having the experience of a mommy is not important to a child?
I don't know how important a straight couple is to the health of a child. We will soon have some insight into this question, because statistics will become available in the next decade or so.

Quote:
If a rich, healthy gay couple want to adopt an infant should they be chosen over a poor, healthy straight couple?
How poor?
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