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  #31  
Old Feb 7, '12, 5:40 am
TheRealJuliane TheRealJuliane is offline
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

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Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
This is irrrelevant to my point. Jesus lived in dictatorship. If you prefer, this oligarchy with a democratic facade, then even then Jesus would have supported the contributing to the government in whatever way does not contradict the divine law.
It is always relevant to correct misconceptions about our country and its foundation. Many people who have never read the founding documents tend to call our republic a democracy, and they need to understand the difference. Whether you believe that we are now an "oligarchy with a democratic facade," is irrelevant. The nation was founded as a representative federal republic with democratic features. We are neither an oligarchy nor a democracy.
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  #32  
Old Feb 7, '12, 6:41 am
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

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That is NOT the title, which is NOT a statement but a question: "Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?" In other words the Welfare State. A good question but a confused reply.
…Strange confusion here as well -- an uncalled for assertion, as His Church has condemned both communism and socialism.
Don't you think the Church would also condemn the rule of the Caesar's? Yet Jesus said that support for that was due to Caesar, though limited by that which was due God. Which government do you think was most sinful, Rome or the Soviet Union? The question is not what would the Church say about any given system. Your answer addresses a different question than I address. I answered the question literally.

The words "welfare" and "nanny" may refer to the same things, but the words are definitely different, as different as abortion and early termination. "Nanny" conveys the opinion of the one asking the question.

Quote:
But since His Church emphatically supports the free market within a wise rule of law, what evidence is there of the attitude of Jesus?
See, I would not say the word "emphatic" here. That too is rhetoric. The Church allows for a free market, but then also allows that for many systems, including a Catholic monarchy. In fact, most everything from limited socialism to limited capitalism is acceptable. The Catholic Church definitely allows for the use of tax dollars to help the poor and needy. Because of the right to ownership of property, communism is not acceptable.

Dr Chafuen in Christians For Freedom, Ignatius 1986, p 45,...The sin of the steward is his misuse of his master’s business, not the work of business itself.” [Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 47].[/quote]Each of these are excellent examples of what I mean as a mirror or our own ideas. The read into the passage that which is wanted instead of extracting out from them the meaning. I think the examples are obvious. If I need, I will explain the limitations of each and why they do not address the question of this thread.
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  #33  
Old Feb 7, '12, 6:49 am
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

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It is always relevant to correct misconceptions about our country and its foundation.
I said, in case you are not reading my posts, it is irrelevant to my point. You know the topic of the thread. The discussion at hand. This country is frequently called a democracy as a matter of brevity, as opposed to a thesis on the Constitution and the differences therein. I have never met anyone else that has needed to launch into a discussion on the differences based merely on the use of the word "democracy".
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  #34  
Old Feb 7, '12, 1:46 pm
MarkInOregon MarkInOregon is offline
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

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Originally Posted by Abu View Post
Jesus was misrepresented by Bernward in #6:
1) The requirement for eternal life is keeping the Commandments + love of neighbour
2) The selling everything for the poor + following Jesus is a counsel of perfection – such as an Apostle

Jesus did NOT condemn the rich young man nor did He condemn the possession of riches. It is the misuse of riches which is condemned – that is the key to understanding our freedom and our “right to freedom of economic initiative.” (Bl John Paul II). That is why Bl JPII condemns the Welfare State and emphatically supports the free market in a society of wise laws.

By using just this passage in a thread on Would Jesus support the Nanny State?, strongly suggests that all with riches should give everything away and become like an Apostle – the problem being that wealth can be distributed only after it is created, and how many are wealthy? It bucks the great need for free enterprise and people faithful to Christ which He teaches in the Parables of the Talents and the Dishonest Steward.
Nor did Jesus affirm the possession of riches. He did, however, say " "You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." At that statement his face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions. Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!" The disciples were amazed at his words.
So Jesus again said to them in reply, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Mk 10:21 - 25

This is hardly a ringing endorsement of wealth. Nor is it a comment on the role of government. There are other passages dealing with riches that one could cite, that also are not ringing endorsements of wealth. Mk 6:19-21 comes to mind: "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and decay destroy, and theives break in and steal. But store up treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor decay destroys, nor thieves break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there also will your heart be."

I think there is a difference between earning a lot of money, putting your money to work in productive businesses and simply accumulating a lot of wealth--this may be rather nuanced. It is what we do with what we earn that mattters. It doesn't necessarily suggest they become like an apostle but it might suggest they not accumulate a lot of wealth but instead use earnings/wealth and in so doing accumulate treasure in heavern. If I earn a lot of money--I don't necessarily have to accumulate a lot of wealth--there are other ways I could use my earnings.

I also question whether you are properly reading the parable of the talents--it is most definitely not about acquiring riches.

For the life of me--I don't understand all the handwringing over providing a social safety net and demonizing the concept by calling that a nanny state (I would argue they are vastly different). Would it be better and more effecient if we, as individuals and communities, did it ourselves? I am sure it would, but we don't--the proof is in the pudding as they say. If we did it--there would be no call for the government to do it. You can complain about abuse and cheats--but you'll find just as much abuse and as many cheats in the business community--yet I don't hear anyone calling for the abolution of that.

The last time I checked my money did not belong to me but to God. And the coins I am issued have government images and inscriptions--so I guess I should be rendering it to whom it belongs.

Peace,
Mark
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  #35  
Old Feb 7, '12, 2:25 pm
jonbhorton jonbhorton is offline
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

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Originally Posted by pnewton View Post
I said, in case you are not reading my posts, it is irrelevant to my point. You know the topic of the thread. The discussion at hand. This country is frequently called a democracy as a matter of brevity, as opposed to a thesis on the Constitution and the differences therein. I have never met anyone else that has needed to launch into a discussion on the differences based merely on the use of the word "democracy".
Because once it is reiterated that the use of the word is erroneous, despite the public opinion otherwise, often opining based on said misunderstanding, the discussion can move forward properly.

The democratic principles evident in the US do not negate that it is not a democracy and thus- the altogether false opinion of anything built on that misunderstanding must be automatically thrown out from the argument. Democratic principles, when misunderstood, can lead to a true democracy or some variant thereof. We live in a Constitutional Republic and any discussion related to the topic of the US role in said discussion must follow from that foundational principle. Otherwise, it's like 3rd graders discussing quantum physics- pointless and uninformed.
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  #36  
Old Feb 7, '12, 2:34 pm
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

Quote:
MarkInOregon #34
I think there is a difference between earning a lot of money, putting your money to work in productive businesses and simply accumulating a lot of wealth--this may be rather nuanced. It is what we do with what we earn that mattters.
It is not merely nuanced – this is what really matters – what we do with wealth.
Quote:
I also question whether you are properly reading the parable of the talents--it is most definitely not about acquiring riches
As was stated in post #26: it “most strikingly acknowledges Christ’s respect for the work of business.”
And this is how:
In the parable of the talents, Jesus lauds the servant who has multiplied talents -- "For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Mt 25: 14-30). Christ certainly praised the wise use of the fundamental right of economic initiative and prudence in this parable.

1) “There is the emphasis on the ‘talent’, which is a measure of value.
2) “The trading activity of the two stewards is important. Christ praises them for the energy, alertness, and perseverance they demonstrate in making a truly significant profit (they have doubled the original sum). There is a reference to accountability which is crucial to any business.
3) “Then the nuanced criticism of fear: ‘I was afraid, and I went off and hid your talent in the ground.’ This fear leads the lazy steward to avoid the risks and obstacles that are a key part of entrepreneurial work.
4) “There is the clear reference to the financial system. The lazy steward at least could have placed the ‘money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest.’ ”

“We can this affirm unambiguously that Jesus Christ ‘looks with love on upon human work’ and that the work of the merchant – the businessman or the entrepreneur – is one of the ‘different forms’ of work that is affirmed. The parable of the talents makes this clear by its reference to money, trading, risk taking and banking.”
[Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 48-49].

Free enterprise and entrepreneurship have been lauded first by Christ in the Parables of the Dishonest Steward and The Talents, and by the Fathers of the Church, and by Popes in Centesimus Annus and Caritas in Veritate.
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  #37  
Old Feb 7, '12, 2:36 pm
Matrix Refugee Matrix Refugee is offline
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

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Originally Posted by rdscheirer View Post
The only public welfare that should be distributed should be given by private citizens to support the poorest of the poor through their churches. This would put a "behavior" standard on it instead of giving our tax money to the criminal class.

There have been 4 murders in the Augusta Ga area in the last two days.
The problem is, that would amount to begging, and not many people are comfortable doing that, plus, a lot of people look down on those who've been reduced to that state. Consider how many threads end up being created on this forum, asking whether or not it's sinful to give money to a beggar, in case they might be using the money for illegal drugs!

Also, speaking as someone who's on government aid, due to her own disabilities, that's pretty much telling me or someone like me that I should be asking my friends and family for money, when I don't have a lot of friends -- much less ones with money to spare -- and my core family had to pretty much avoid the extended family due to personal conflicts and verbal abuse. In the real world, it just would not work.
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  #38  
Old Feb 7, '12, 2:37 pm
jonbhorton jonbhorton is offline
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

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Originally Posted by MarkInOregon View Post

For most of what you've written: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=637613

The last time I checked my money did not belong to me but to God. And the coins I am issued have government images and inscriptions--so I guess I should be rendering it to whom it belongs.

Contradiction much?

#1- you have fiat currency notes and coins which are not governmental, but entirely private in their source: the Federal Reserve which is not a government bank, nor is it a true Federal institution as it is private. Caesar's image was on Caesar's coins. In my coin jar, and from my monopoly money wallet, I count many more images of dead men than 1, and nothing currently memorializing living presidents.

#2- if the money is totally belonging to a private entity, and yet you maintain it belongs to God, does not God triumph in ownership?

Please see content outside quote box.
A small section from Ann Barnhardt which explains the concept very well:

Quote:
Poor in spirit and poor in fact: This is a person who does have have any great wealth, but is also content and still maintains a spirit of generosity and gratitude. This condition is exemplified by the parable of the Widow’s mite in Mark 12: 41-44. The poor widow gave the smallest tithe, but it was greater than the tithes of the rich because, “she of her want cast in all she had, even her whole living.” The widow was detached even from what little she had, even though on a percentage basis it far, far exceeded what the rich tithed. The widow was both poor in fact, and poor in spirit.

Rich in spirit and poor in fact: This is the person who lives beyond their means and is preoccupied with the APPEARANCE of wealth. (Cough, cough. Ring any bells? Ahem.) This is the person who leverages himself out the gazoo so that he can have the 4000 square foot house and the luxury car . . . even though he only makes $65k per year. This would also be the welfare denizen who scoffs at honest work and lives off of the government, but has a 55” LCD TV and PlayStation, and has multi-thousand dollar hair extensions and intricately manicured fingernails. No. Way. Girl. I did NOT just go there. Oh yes I did.

Rich in spirit, rich in fact: This is the rich person who is very much attached to their wealth, and places the preservation of their wealth as their top priority. And as so many of you picked up on in the Peter Schiff interview below, this is Mr. Schiff’s failing. If you scroll down and fast-forward the video to the 15:43 mark, here is the exchange that utterly exemplifies this condition: (redacted due to not being necessary in light of other sources)

Poor in spirit, rich in fact: Very simply, this is a person who is at any level of financial comfort above “poor” who is willing to push their wealth “all-in” if that is what is required to follow Christ fully. I’ll not bore you with any examples. You get it.

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  #39  
Old Feb 8, '12, 5:02 am
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pnewton pnewton is offline
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

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In the parable of the talents, Jesus lauds the servant who has multiplied talents -- "For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Mt 25: 14-30). Christ certainly praised the wise use of the fundamental right of economic initiative and prudence in this parable.
I think you have a example of Jesus actually supporting riches as not evil in and of themselves. It is, in the example of Ann Barhardt (above post) poor in spirit, rich in fact, or money without the love of money. Definitely trading is seen as acceptable. However, it is not really an endorsement of free enterprise. We must remember that the talent of wealth are but a symbol of all that God has given us. The Master in the parable is not a banker, but God. I think we know that just because an element is used in a parable, this does not mean it is an endorsement. Otherwise, lying and cheating would be endorsed (the dishonest steward) and dog salivia would be an ointment for sores (Lazarus and the rich man).
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  #40  
Old Feb 8, '12, 9:46 am
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

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Originally Posted by Matrix Refugee View Post
The problem is, that would amount to begging, and not many people are comfortable doing that, plus, a lot of people look down on those who've been reduced to that state. Consider how many threads end up being created on this forum, asking whether or not it's sinful to give money to a beggar, in case they might be using the money for illegal drugs!

Also, speaking as someone who's on government aid, due to her own disabilities, that's pretty much telling me or someone like me that I should be asking my friends and family for money, when I don't have a lot of friends -- much less ones with money to spare -- and my core family had to pretty much avoid the extended family due to personal conflicts and verbal abuse. In the real world, it just would not work.
In cases where the adult is in possession of his/her faculties, of course the assistance ought to go directly to that person. Only in cases in which an adult is not able to make financial decisions should the money go to the family to care for him/her. And if the family is not able/unwilling/unreliable/non-existent, the courts should appoint someone to act on his/her behalf. Such situations are not insurmountable if we would only use our common sense, yes?
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  #41  
Old Feb 8, '12, 4:22 pm
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

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pnewton
I think we know that just because an element is used in a parable, this does not mean it is an endorsement. Otherwise, lying and cheating would be endorsed (the dishonest steward)
Naturally, but this bucks the fact that in the Parable of the Talents “we can this affirm unambiguously that Jesus Christ ‘looks with love on upon human work’ and that the work of the merchant – the businessman or the entrepreneur – is one of the ‘different forms’ of work that is affirmed. The parable of the talents makes this clear by its reference to money, trading, risk taking and banking.”
[Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 48-49]

So of course lying and cheating are NOT endorsed, only prejudice would see that:
Just as Christ’s parable of the Talents most strikingly acknowledges Christ’s respect for the work of business, so does the parable of the Dishonest Steward – the steward is dishonest, “but the nature of his work is not. In fact by praising his shrewdness, Christ admires his opportunism. While the steward abuses the trust his master extends to him, it must be recognised that the nature of the work that is entrusted to him is fundamentally good. The sin of the steward is his misuse of his master’s business, not the work of business itself.” [Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 47].
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  #42  
Old Feb 9, '12, 5:39 pm
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Swiss Guy Swiss Guy is offline
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

Since this is kind of on topic now, who were the money-changers in the Temple that Jesus said were thieves? I mean, what did they do that made them thieves?
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  #43  
Old Feb 10, '12, 7:14 am
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

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“we can this affirm unambiguously that Jesus Christ ‘looks with love on upon human work’ and that the work of the merchant – the businessman or the entrepreneur – is one of the ‘different forms’ of work that is affirmed. The parable of the talents makes this clear by its reference to money, trading, risk taking and banking.”
[Entrepreneurship in the Catholic Tradition, Fr Anthony G Percy, Lexington Books, 2010, p 48-49]
I understand what Fr. Percy is saying. I do not think I agree with going as far though to say that this indicates what Jesus would do. Rather, he is using principles from the parables to argue for a moral entrepreneurship. I really do not agree with this though. I really think that these parables are about the way to build the Kingdom of God, not business. In fact, I think this author is doing the same thing I said in my first post of using the teachings of Jesus to support a point we already intend to show. Note that the book is not an exposition of the parables, but a book on entrepreneurship.

I would like to interject though that I am a big believer in free market economics, though this really isn't the issue here.
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  #44  
Old Feb 10, '12, 7:16 am
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Default Re: Would Jesus Support the Nanny State?

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Since this is kind of on topic now, who were the money-changers in the Temple that Jesus said were thieves? I mean, what did they do that made them thieves?
Not to be too picky, but Jesus actually didn't call them theives. He said they had made the Temple a Den of Thieves. It seems the emphasis is more on the inappropriate location than their actual actions.
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  #45  
Old Feb 10, '12, 1:50 pm
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Not to be too picky, but Jesus actually didn't call them theives. He said they had made the Temple a Den of Thieves. It seems the emphasis is more on the inappropriate location than their actual actions.
k. thanks.
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