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  #61  
Old Feb 9, '12, 1:05 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop: Obama Needs To Stop 'Intruding Into Internal Life Of Church'...

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Originally Posted by iloveangels View Post
Yes, but it's really not about demographics. It's about religious freedom. They want to be your god.
It's not just demographics and its not just religious freedom. It is both and much more.
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  #62  
Old Feb 9, '12, 1:06 pm
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iloveangels iloveangels is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop: Obama Needs To Stop 'Intruding Into Internal Life Of Church'...

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Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
It's not just demographics and its not just religious freedom. It is both and much more.
Yes. No one is God except God.

Some people may not like that. Some people may act like tyrants with other people over it. But they can't change it. They can only pretend and try to force other people to pretend with them. But all their pretenses are false.

No one is God except God.
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  #63  
Old Feb 9, '12, 1:13 pm
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iloveangels iloveangels is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop: Obama Needs To Stop 'Intruding Into Internal Life Of Church'...

We have the right to believe as we do about homosexuality and a whole host of issues, in addition to the birth control and abortion issues. The federal government may not tell us what to believe and we do not have to bow down to them like they were a god. We have a religion and we have the constitutional right to practice it in freedom. We have a natural right to practice it in freedom. We have a God-given right to practice it in freedom.
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  #64  
Old Feb 9, '12, 1:13 pm
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anp1215 anp1215 is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop: Obama Needs To Stop 'Intruding Into Internal Life Of Church'...

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Originally Posted by iloveangels View Post
Don't feed the trolls.
It's against forum rules to use that term to refer to posters who post their own viewpoints in a respectful manner. We may not agree with their viewpoints, but they are entitled to hold them and post them here.
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  #65  
Old Feb 9, '12, 1:16 pm
oneofmany oneofmany is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop: Obama Needs To Stop 'Intruding Into Internal Life Of Church'...

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Originally Posted by JimG View Post
“Although it is far removed from the severity of Britain's old recusancy measures, Obama's policy bears an uncomfortable similarity to them. Catholics will not be directly forced to repudiate their moral principles, but some of their most important institutions will be fined handsomely for refusing to do so.”
Source: Catholic World Report: Twenty First Century Recusants
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/I...recusants.aspx

Does the administration intend to penalize Catholic institutions enough to run them out of business, or merely to force them to abandon their Catholic moral principles through financial pressure?

Probably to run them out of business. This administration is verging on socialism and all socialists think government can do a better job. The government is betting they can't abandon their moral principles and they will have to give the government control of their organizations.

Has anyone looked into the various Muslim organizations and if they are being forced to supply these services? I wonder if this government will push the Muslims like they are pushing Christians?

Abortion providers have become powerful in our nation and I fear they are taking over.
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  #66  
Old Feb 9, '12, 1:24 pm
Vincent N Vincent N is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop: Obama Needs To Stop 'Intruding Into Internal Life Of Church'...

A few years ago I defended the decision by bishops to engage pro-abort Catholic politicians believing that when push comes to shove, punitive actions would be taken. Today, I'm a little older though perhaps no wiser. One thing to my credit, I do understand that the Church's mission isn't and shouldn't have anything to do with punishing anyone.

To me, Obama's decision to push to matter may have been influenced by what he has seen of Catholicism in the US and well nigh the world. The Church has the mother of all pastoral problem.

Where the Church has failed is in preventing scandalizing of the faithful. Politicians at the highest level have a high level of influence. Bad Catholics in high places influence people in a bad way. That's what everyone knows. But, wow there are so many of them something like one for every other.

So, why does the Church not excommunicate these politicians to protect the faithful? Is it because they hold their pastoral mission to these individuals above that of others, sort of like a distorted understanding of the parable of the lost sheep? No, that's not it. Is it because everyone a prelate and above is a coward afraid of political repercussion, sort of like the Peter Principle applied to Church Hierarchy? No exactly, but sorta methinks. There must me some level of uncertainty stemming from lack of support. Uncertainly leads to fear. The bishops are afraid.

The more difficult the decision, the more the feedback is needed. The laity, deacons, and priests need to tell their bishops and the Pope how these individuals have pulled our friends and family away from the true teachings of the Church. We need to point out how the that acts of disobedience by these politicians nullify and indeed overwhelm our own efforts to help them stay true to Church Teachings.


This HHS issue is a symptom of a larger problem and until we deal with it, we're going to be dealing with more such symptoms.
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  #67  
Old Feb 9, '12, 1:32 pm
_Abyssinia _Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop: Obama Needs To Stop 'Intruding Into Internal Life Of Church'...

OBAMA SPOKESMEN ARE INSINCERE

http://www.catholicleague.org/obama-...are-insincere/

-

Obama Promotes Controversial Mandate to Democrats, Some Balk

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/02/09/o...ats-some-balk/

-

BIRTH CONTROL IS NOT THE ISSUE

http://www.catholicleague.org/birth-...not-the-issue/

-

CPAC Speakers Blast Obama, His Mandate and Abortion

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/02/09/c...-and-abortion/

-

Hispanics unsheath anti-Obama condom anger

http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/09/ob...hispanic-vote/
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  #68  
Old Feb 9, '12, 2:08 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: The HHS Mandate Has Already Been Law for 10 Years.........

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Originally Posted by CatholicMedic View Post
So you are cool with the mandate regardless if it old law or new?
I actually see both sides. But when I peer at the bottom line, whether we agree with a religious doctrine or not, or with a civil law, I'm not seeing how as an American living in a democracy of plural beliefs with a law of the land, I could be any other way.

The bishops and the Church have and shall retain the right guaranteed under the Constitution to preach doctrine. And we have and retain the freedom whether or not to exercise our right to follow any particular religious doctrine in our own personal lives. If a Catholic woman wishes to follow her religious doctrine, she is free to continue to do so and not use the benefits offered. In addition churches themselves that are closely tied to spreading doctrine can apply for an exemption to the mandate.

So I view this less as a religious liberty issue and see it more as an employer issue and what is allowed under the law. It is about contraceptive coverage being part of the health care reform law. Now we can agree or disagree about a facet of any law. We can even work to overturn laws. But until a law is changed, it is the law.

And under this law if we limit health care coverage to women based on an employer's religion, I see further problems if an employer's religion were to for instance forbid blood transfusions or disapprove of some other medical intervention on the grounds that it interferes with God.

Or if an employer's religion decided to forbid its adherents to pay taxes, or decided minimum wage laws, child labor laws, or other laws related to work conditions were against their religious beliefs, or even decided its adherents must not practice monogamy and could only hire polygamists, and so forth ... an employer would not be allowed to disregard the law under the banner that their religion forbids these things. There are all sorts of laws employers and citizens must abide by which we may not like and neither an employer nor any citizen has the right to break a law of any kind without consequences.

God bless our President along with others of faith, as well as those Americans of no faith, as we work through this issue of caring. Peace
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  #69  
Old Feb 9, '12, 2:15 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: The HHS Mandate Has Already Been Law for 10 Years.........

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Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
The bishops and the Church have and shall retain the right guaranteed under the Constitution to preach doctrine.
Wow, that is very generous of you!

Does everyone realize how generous Obama is being to us? Why, he is going to allow the Church to continue preach doctrine.

They won't be allowed to practice the doctrine that they teach, but hey, they can still preach it!

Repent and make way for Obama, the magnificent and generous.
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  #70  
Old Feb 9, '12, 2:19 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop: Obama Needs To Stop 'Intruding Into Internal Life Of Church'...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent N View Post
A few years ago I defended the decision by bishops to engage pro-abort Catholic politicians believing that when push comes to shove, punitive actions would be taken. Today, I'm a little older though perhaps no wiser. One thing to my credit, I do understand that the Church's mission isn't and shouldn't have anything to do with punishing anyone.

To me, Obama's decision to push to matter may have been influenced by what he has seen of Catholicism in the US and well nigh the world. The Church has the mother of all pastoral problem.

Where the Church has failed is in preventing scandalizing of the faithful. Politicians at the highest level have a high level of influence. Bad Catholics in high places influence people in a bad way. That's what everyone knows. But, wow there are so many of them something like one for every other.

So, why does the Church not excommunicate these politicians to protect the faithful? Is it because they hold their pastoral mission to these individuals above that of others, sort of like a distorted understanding of the parable of the lost sheep? No, that's not it. Is it because everyone a prelate and above is a coward afraid of political repercussion, sort of like the Peter Principle applied to Church Hierarchy? No exactly, but sorta methinks. There must me some level of uncertainty stemming from lack of support. Uncertainly leads to fear. The bishops are afraid.

The more difficult the decision, the more the feedback is needed. The laity, deacons, and priests need to tell their bishops and the Pope how these individuals have pulled our friends and family away from the true teachings of the Church. We need to point out how the that acts of disobedience by these politicians nullify and indeed overwhelm our own efforts to help them stay true to Church Teachings.


This HHS issue is a symptom of a larger problem and until we deal with it, we're going to be dealing with more such symptoms.
Are you saying the bishops need to do a better job and not depend on the government to ban contraceptive coverage for instance?
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  #71  
Old Feb 9, '12, 2:24 pm
_Abyssinia _Abyssinia is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop: Obama Needs To Stop 'Intruding Into Internal Life Of Church'...

20 Catholic (and Christian) Institutions Opposing Obama/HHS Mandate

http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=26406
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  #72  
Old Feb 9, '12, 2:29 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop: Obama Needs To Stop 'Intruding Into Internal Life Of Church'...

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Originally Posted by JimG View Post
Judging by comments from the White House press spokesman and the ferocious attacks by various leftist congresspersons and organizations, it doesn't seem that the administration plans any compromise on this issue.
Too soon to tell whether there will be further compromise beyond the exemptions already in place. Having watched the President in his first term though, he's always been willing to compromise. He compromised on health care by taking single payer off the table. Which incidentally under such a system, we wouldn't even be having this employer mandate debate. He went further and compromised by not demanding a public option. He compromised in extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy at the end of 2010. As just a few examples. But of course compromise is a 2 way street.
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  #73  
Old Feb 9, '12, 2:40 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Archbishop: Obama Needs To Stop 'Intruding Into Internal Life Of Church'...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
Are you saying the bishops need to do a better job and not depend on the government to ban contraceptive coverage for instance?
The bishops long ago gave up on government proscription of contraceptives. But, of course, as with so many things, the pendulum has now swung entirely in the other direction. Obama is going to require the Church to provide contraceptives, abortions, and such.
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  #74  
Old Feb 9, '12, 2:43 pm
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: The HHS Mandate Has Already Been Law for 10 Years.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
Wow, that is very generous of you!

Does everyone realize how generous Obama is being to us? Why, he is going to allow the Church to continue preach doctrine.

They won't be allowed to practice the doctrine that they teach, but hey, they can still preach it!
You left out a large portion of what I said. They can also practice it in their own personal lives. But unless they're for instance a church getting an exemption, they must also abide by laws governing employers. I think it's just a bit more complicated and perhaps not as black and white as many here think is all.
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  #75  
Old Feb 9, '12, 2:50 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: The HHS Mandate Has Already Been Law for 10 Years.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
You left out a large portion of what I said. They can also practice it in their own personal lives. But unless they're for instance a church getting an exemption, they must also abide by laws governing employers. I think it's just a bit more complicated than many here think is all.
First of all, it is factually incorrect to say that Catholics "must also abide by laws governing employers". Obama can pass all the laws he wants but Catholics have the choice whether or not to follow the law.

The bishops, and now many other religious leaders, have clearly indicated that they will not "abide by laws governing employers".

Good for them.

More importantly, setting aside the pretense of magnanimity that you are constantly attempting to attribute to Lord Obama, socialized health care turns what was previously personal matter into a government matter. The state has encroached on personal choices, namely the choice whether to provide medical treatment for the disease of pregnancy.

Having thus intruded into personal lives you are not going to pretend that Catholics are free to practice in their personal lives? Do you even understand the absurdity of that?
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