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  #1  
Old Feb 8, '12, 7:37 pm
Future Prodigy Future Prodigy is offline
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Default "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

document in question: http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...m?storyid=7732

After reading this, I started to become troubled with certain questions. If the Church is willing to allow the Orthodox to accept a papal position reflective of first millennium Christianity... it seems this would cause other theological ripples. As an Anglican discerning conversion to Rome for the last couple years the papacy has been the major hurdle for me to get over. If Rome is now saying that it might allow such a theological stance to be taken, I can't help but think that my church along with Lutheranism and other denominations would never have come in to existence. Obviously there was other underlying causes but the papacy was a major instigating issue. Allowing a first century interpretation affirms a lot of what classical protestantism has been saying for centuries!?

I don't understand this move, and it has further complicated my thinking - as I have been doing extensive reading on first millennium Christianity hoping to solve some of my issues (essentially seeing from these sources, that the Pope did in deed have such a position and was not a later development). Is the church now invalidating numerous apologetics which have sought to maintain a modern understanding of the pope in the first millennium!?

Please someone who is more knowledgeable on this topic than I, speak up. How do I make sense of this "ecumenical" move? It seems like complete undermining.
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  #2  
Old Feb 8, '12, 7:45 pm
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Nine_Two Nine_Two is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

While I don't think this would change the facts of the protestant reformation, I do tend to agree that by giving this statement it is a tacit agreement that the second millenium view of the papacy is either wrong, or at the least, questionable.
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  #3  
Old Feb 8, '12, 7:47 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Prodigy View Post
document in question: http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...m?storyid=7732

After reading this, I started to become troubled with certain questions. If the Church is willing to allow the Orthodox to accept a papal position reflective of first millennium Christianity... it seems this would cause other theological ripples. As an Anglican discerning conversion to Rome for the last couple years the papacy has been the major hurdle for me to get over. If Rome is now saying that it might allow such a theological stance to be taken, I can't help but think that my church along with Lutheranism and other denominations would never have come in to existence. Obviously there was other underlying causes but the papacy was a major instigating issue. Allowing a first century interpretation affirms a lot of what classical protestantism has been saying for centuries!?

I don't understand this move, and it has further complicated my thinking - as I have been doing extensive reading on first millennium Christianity hoping to solve some of my issues (essentially seeing from these sources, that the Pope did in deed have such a position and was not a later development). Is the church now invalidating numerous apologetics which have sought to maintain a modern understanding of the pope in the first millennium!?

Please someone who is more knowledgeable on this topic than I, speak up. How do I make sense of this "ecumenical" move? It seems like complete undermining.
Remember that this is just a discussion of what the Pope is in relation to the Eastern Churches. This will not change what the Pope is today for Western Christianity. So any Roman Catholic will not feel or see any change from their perspective, if there is one.
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  #4  
Old Feb 8, '12, 7:49 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine_Two View Post
While I don't think this would change the facts of the protestant reformation, I do tend to agree that by giving this statement it is a tacit agreement that the second millenium view of the papacy is either wrong, or at the least, questionable.
Or they can just say that the role of the Papacy as is today has been all along intended exclusively for the Western Church and that the schism made it complicated somewhat, which I believe it did. For a few centuries the Pope who's also Patriarch of the West, only headed the Latin Church. Even the Maronites, who never formally broke communion, were out of communication for a while. They can simply say that the role of the Pope that evolved is meant only for the West and should have not been applied to the Eastern Churches.
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  #5  
Old Feb 8, '12, 8:01 pm
Future Prodigy Future Prodigy is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine_Two View Post
While I don't think this would change the facts of the protestant reformation, I do tend to agree that by giving this statement it is a tacit agreement that the second millenium view of the papacy is either wrong, or at the least, questionable.
Which to me has far reaching implications, does it not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
Or they can just say that the role of the Papacy as is today has been all along intended exclusively for the Western Church... Maronites...simply say that the role of the Pope that evolved is meant only for the West.
Maybe I'm being too sentimental but it seems that this flies in the face of what has been said historically for centuries now. It seems to at the bare minimum ignore the issue at hand. Simply side sweeping the notion as being relevant only for western Christians is troublesome. Where did this line of reasoning come from? I have only ever read and heard arguments made for the universal jurisdiction, never solely western Christendom.
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  #6  
Old Feb 8, '12, 8:05 pm
Future Prodigy Future Prodigy is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

It seems silly to believe that the pope had some special power in the western church but not in the eastern church. Logically, he either has a place of universal authority or none (and as a result the current view is a development if this is the case). Why would the bishop of Rome have precedence over other bishops in the west at the exclusion of eastern bishops? This seems problematic and not the argument made in history or by current apologetics.
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  #7  
Old Feb 8, '12, 8:11 pm
mardukm mardukm is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Prodigy View Post
document in question: http://www.catholicculture.org/news/...m?storyid=7732

After reading this, I started to become troubled with certain questions. If the Church is willing to allow the Orthodox to accept a papal position reflective of first millennium Christianity... it seems this would cause other theological ripples. As an Anglican discerning conversion to Rome for the last couple years the papacy has been the major hurdle for me to get over. If Rome is now saying that it might allow such a theological stance to be taken, I can't help but think that my church along with Lutheranism and other denominations would never have come in to existence. Obviously there was other underlying causes but the papacy was a major instigating issue. Allowing a first century interpretation affirms a lot of what classical protestantism has been saying for centuries!?

I don't understand this move, and it has further complicated my thinking - as I have been doing extensive reading on first millennium Christianity hoping to solve some of my issues (essentially seeing from these sources, that the Pope did in deed have such a position and was not a later development). Is the church now invalidating numerous apologetics which have sought to maintain a modern understanding of the pope in the first millennium!?

Please someone who is more knowledgeable on this topic than I, speak up. How do I make sense of this "ecumenical" move? It seems like complete undermining.
I am not understanding your pov. What exactly do you interpret as "undermining" Catholic principles from that link? Can you please spell it out concisely? Thanks.

Blessings,
Marduk
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  #8  
Old Feb 8, '12, 8:13 pm
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Nine_Two Nine_Two is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Prodigy View Post
Which to me has far reaching implications, does it not?
Absolutely.
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  #9  
Old Feb 8, '12, 8:22 pm
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ByzCathCantor ByzCathCantor is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

I would submit that we are still in the speculative stage as to how things might work in an reunified Church.

As this article correctly states, the history of the papacy and the model of unity in the first millenium has been revisited with a fair degree of agreement.

What has yet to be discussed and determined is how things may work in the third millenium ...
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  #10  
Old Feb 8, '12, 8:26 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Prodigy View Post
Which to me has far reaching implications, does it not?

Maybe I'm being too sentimental but it seems that this flies in the face of what has been said historically for centuries now. It seems to at the bare minimum ignore the issue at hand. Simply side sweeping the notion as being relevant only for western Christians is troublesome. Where did this line of reasoning come from? I have only ever read and heard arguments made for the universal jurisdiction, never solely western Christendom.
Just a thought. But after the Great Schism, the Pope doesn't have any other Church except the Latin Church, no other Patriarch to tell him otherwise. All the other Churches are in schism from him and the Maronites were cut-off. I think the position I proposed is reasonable in a way that Rome doesn't have to completely recant from its current position and at the same time give what the Eastern Churches have been asking for. Most people think its an either/or proposition, that the Pope claim universal jurisdiction or he doesn't. I'm just inserting a third position which is a combination of the two thrown in there that Rome, perhaps to save face, say that how the Pope is viewed as been always from the Western perspective and that the absence of the Eastern Churches for centuries has skewed the view that "universal" during that time actually just means "Western" since there are no Eastern Churches for a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Prodigy View Post
It seems silly to believe that the pope had some special power in the western church but not in the eastern church. Logically, he either has a place of universal authority or none (and as a result the current view is a development if this is the case). Why would the bishop of Rome have precedence over other bishops in the west at the exclusion of eastern bishops? This seems problematic and not the argument made in history or by current apologetics.
Why is it silly? He is Patriarch of the Latin Church, he does have "special power" in the Latin Church that he doesn't have in the East.
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  #11  
Old Feb 8, '12, 8:57 pm
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Paul theApostle Paul theApostle is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

Do the Orthodox believe/think that the Pope wants to 'rule' them?

therfore they dont want to be subject to him,or like his subjects?

Surely the Pope is fair and charitable and not a ruling cruel dictactor no?

or do the Orthodox not want to give jurisdictional control of their churches to the Pope of Rome?

Is that what would happen (surrender control/power of their churches to the Pope) ? or would the Pope not take control of their churches?
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  #12  
Old Feb 8, '12, 9:06 pm
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Nine_Two Nine_Two is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
Do the Orthodox believe/think that the Pope wants to 'rule' them?

therfore they dont want to be subject to him,or like his subjects?

Surely the Pope is fair and charitable and not a ruling cruel dictactor no?

or do the Orthodox not want to give jurisdictional control of their churches to the Pope of Rome?

Is that what would happen (surrender control/power of their churches to the Pope) ? or would the Pope not take control of their churches?
Both things have happened in the past. The recent trend is toward autonomy, but things can and have changed before.
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  #13  
Old Feb 8, '12, 9:14 pm
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Paul theApostle Paul theApostle is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine_Two View Post
Both things have happened in the past. The recent trend is toward autonomy, but things can and have changed before.

Do you mean with the Eastern Catholics or the Orthodox?

Has the Pope ruled over (had control) over the Orthodox at some time?
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  #14  
Old Feb 8, '12, 9:33 pm
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Nine_Two Nine_Two is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
Do you mean with the Eastern Catholics or the Orthodox?

Has the Pope ruled over (had control) over the Orthodox at some time?
Eastern Catholics. The Pope has never ruled over Orthodox.
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  #15  
Old Feb 8, '12, 9:54 pm
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Paul theApostle Paul theApostle is offline
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Default Re: "Catholic-Orthodox talks on papacy" document from catholic culture; its implications?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine_Two View Post
Eastern Catholics. The Pope has never ruled over Orthodox.
So you believe he wants to 'rule' your church ,or be like a ruler/dictator?

rather than be a loving/generous/charitable overseer of the whole church..?
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