Plea to Catholics of a Liberal Persuasion

[MinkPink]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. Are you saying that the United States as constituted by our forefathers should not exist and that we should be ruled by a religious government?

I wasn't aware being an American made me a "liberal" Catholic. But that's probably not what you meant at all, so could you explain?

Originally Posted by georgetowngrad

Not disagreeing with you but for your own understanding, Most non-religious people don't look at contraception as a conscience issue. It is a matter of practicality, don't want a pregnancy then use contraception. What God thinks of it doesn't come into the picture.

Not to be a pain, but what does God think of contraceptives? Jesus had nothing to say on the matter and I have seen no Biblical references to support opposition to them, though I am open to citations.

Anyway, my understanding is that there was a great deal of dissent surrounding the continuing ban on contraceptives on the Pontifical Commission set up to deal with the matter.

Pope Paul VI has confirmed a ban on the use of contraceptives by Roman Catholics in spite of a Church commission's recommendation for change.

Most members of the Pontifical Commission, set up by Pope Paul's predecessor Pope John XXIII, argued it was time for the Church to face the realities of the modern world.

....

If the Roman Catholic Church were to permit the use of birth control "a wide and easy road" to conjugal infidelity would be opened up, Pope Paul concluded.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2975206.stm

By the summer of 1966, an overwhelming majority of the Pope's commission, including many who had been advocates of prohibiting contraception, reached the conclusion that a change in church teaching was justified. When their report to the Pope was leaked to the press in March 1967, it became front-page news.

While Paul VI was agonizing, many Catholics were already making up their minds. By the mid-60's, only 14 percent of Catholics supported laws that forbade offering birth control information -- down from 45 percent in 1936. In 1964, not quite half the Catholics told pollsters that they would like to see the church accept contraceptives; a year later 63 percent favored a change.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/08/01/us...ted=all&src=pm

So some key things to note: Most members of the Pontifical Commission were arguing against the continued ban on contraceptives. That seems quite significant. It seems Pope Paul VI felt that permitting contraceptives would open the floodgates to sexual immorality, but I am confused as to why they would still be prohibited in marriage for that rationale.

[Dawnia]

Originally Posted by baylee

Although I feel your pain, euthanasia isn't legal (yet).

Actually, it is in several states. Oregon, Washington and Montana all have laws making it legal.

[Tigg]

Originally Posted by iloveangels

It's not about moral issues like birth control etc at all. They want you to think that. It's a violation of the 1st Amendment right to freedom of religion. No matter what your religious feelings are, if the 1st Amendment can be violated, then they could tell you what to believe and run over you. Think of whatever you believe and then imagine that the government is violating it in the most graphic way. If they can violate the 1st amendment, they can do that to you. It's a constitutional issue and it affects everyone in the country.

Yes it is a direct frontal attack on religious freedom, but I've been doing a lot of reading lately and am starting to think the progressives might be killing two birds with one stone. They have many agendas to enact upon us but the enforced mandate will aid in a bigger scheme as well. Connecting the dots here:

Look how the homosexual agenda has gained ground, and what better way to insure birth control than same sex marriage? Contraceptives will now be offered in vending machines and we are beginning to see that young girls, really children themselves, will be able to get access to abortion, even worldwide, in places like China. Poor Africans are being offered "reproductive health" (we know what that's code for) in a sick attempt to control the numbers of the destitute. Illegal Hispanics crossing the border are being counseled by groups so they know their "rights" in obtaining abortions and contraceptives. There are even reports that Muslims who consider the family to be their basic building block, are experiencing a trend toward smaller numbers of children. Even the Girl Scouts have been infiltrated with the pro-aborts. It's absolutely everywhere! Sooooo, enter the radical environmentalists and the sustainability nonsense. Don't get excited anyone - (I know and endorse responsible stewardship of the planet.) But God as Creator and His Providential Care is being forcibly removed from the picture by atheists and the leftist philosophy that says man must make the State his God. And of course, the U.N. and it's population fund is doing all it can to ensure it happens.

Why did they come for the Catholics first? I just read an interesting article that the Catholic Church is the only Christian religion which has retained the absolute truth in opposing artificial birth control.

Many, many things to think about as evil comes in every form!

[Tigg]

Originally Posted by MinkPink

Not to be a pain, but what does God think of contraceptives? Jesus had nothing to say on the matter and I have seen no Biblical references to support opposition to them, though I am open to citations.

Anyway, my understanding is that there was a great deal of dissent surrounding the continuing ban on contraceptives on the Pontifical Commission set up to deal with the matter.

So some key things to note: Most members of the Pontifical Commission were arguing against the continued ban on contraceptives. That seems quite significant. It seems Pope Paul VI felt that permitting contraceptives would open the floodgates to sexual immorality, but I am confused as to why they would still be prohibited in marriage for that rationale.

I assume from your post you are not Catholic. One needs to understand the infallibility issue which comes from the teaching Magisterium of the Church comprised of the College of Bishops and the Holy Father. (If you want to understand, look to Catholic Answers publications for the correct church teaching.) A Pontifical Commission alone, does not hold the supreme and full authority of the Catholic Chuch. There are dissidents, even deep within the institution, but it is absolutely not possible for the Church to change her teaching. Although doctrine can develop over time, it is important to remember that it must always go in the same vein, and along the same lines as previous church teaching. What has been declared infallible teaching, will always remain so. (There is a distinction between human disciplines which can change, and dogma, so don't get confused.) Will the Church experience a schism in the near future due to the heretics? imho only, I think it quite possible.

It seems Pope Paul VI felt that permitting contraceptives would open the floodgates to sexual immorality, but I am confused as to why they would still be prohibited in marriage for that rationale

Too deep to fully answer this comment, but again, the primary focus is not so much about sexual immorality as it is about the prevention of a life and a soul destined to live forever by God's method of procreation. If you're really interested you need to read orthodox material about the Creator and the Catholic meaning of life which we hold precious and primary in God's design!

[MinkPink]

Originally Posted by Tigg

I assume from your post you are not Catholic. One needs to understand the infallibility issue which comes from the teaching Magisterium of the Church comprised of the College of Bishops and the Holy Father. (If you want to understand, look to Catholic Answers publications for the correct church teaching.) A Pontifical Commission alone, does not hold the supreme and full authority of the Catholic Chuch. There are dissidents, even deep within the institution, but it is absolutely not possible for the Church to change her teaching. Although doctrine can develop over time, but it is important to remember that it must always go in the same vein, and along the same lines as previous church teaching. What has been declared infallible teaching, will always remain so. (There is a distinction between human disciplines which can change, and dogma, so don't get confused.) Will the Church experience a schism in the near future due to the heretics? imho only, I think it quite possible.

Not Catholic yet Is there any papal proclamation on contraceptives considered infallible?

Too deep to fully answer this comment, but again, the primary focus is not so much about sexual immorality as it is about the prevention of a life and a soul destined to live forever in God's method of procreation. If you're really interested you need to read orthodox material about the Creator and the Catholic meaning of precious life!

Okay, again, not to be a pain, but I am genuinely curious how one would reconcile a God who sees sex as a procreative act only whereby fertilized eggs are considered fully human and the full point of sexual relations and the fact that millions of fertilized eggs fail to implant. why would God make our bodies so that 60 to 80 percent of embryos fail to implant in the uterus and are cleared out of a woman's body through her cycle each month? Why no rush to solve the crisis of natural embryo loss, amounting to millions upon millions each year?

[Bubba Switzler]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. Are you saying that the United States as constituted by our forefathers should not exist and that we should be ruled by a religious government?

I wasn't aware being an American made me a "liberal" Catholic. But that's probably not what you meant at all, so could you explain?

I'll hazard an answer: religious freedom or, more simply, liberty.

If the government runs health care, and if the government "must" be secular then, ipso facto, health care must be secular.

But if health care is left as a private arrangement then people are free, even under a secular government, to allow their religion to influence their health care decisions as, for example, when the bishop elects not to provide abortion pills to his employees.

The bigger and more intrusive you make government, the more ways in which people's different values (religious and otherwise) come into conflict.

Now it also happens to be the case that where government must intervene that people of faith are being disadvantaged under the secularization of government. The US Constitution prohibits the establishment of religion, that is making a religion official, but it does not prohibit religiously influenced law. A lot of secularists are under the misapprehension that any law which has some religious connection may be struck down on account of it not seeming to recognize, or willfully denying the fact of, the religious origins of civilization itself.

[Tigg]

Originally Posted by MinkPink

Not Catholic yet Is there any papal proclamation on contraceptives considered infallible?

Okay, again, not to be a pain, but I am genuinely curious how one would reconcile a God who sees sex as a procreative act only whereby fertilized eggs are considered fully human and the full point of sexual relations and the fact that millions of fertilized eggs fail to implant. why would God make our bodies so that 60 to 80 percent of embryos fail to implant in the uterus and are cleared out of a woman's body through her cycle each month? Why no rush to solve the crisis of natural embryo loss, amounting to millions upon millions each year?

May God bless you on your faith journey. I have a feeling your legitimate questions might lead you into a new and wonderful life.

Not to derail this thread, but there is a certain process that happens when theological learning takes place. First, we question and open our minds (and hearts) to the possible answers. We pray for the power of the Holy Spirit in understanding and we use our reasoning, acknowledging that we, with our limited intellect, cannot understand everything a transcendant God has done. We ask for the gift of faith and then assent to it in love and obedience as God tells us that He has, indeed, revealed His truth to us and protected it from error by the establishment of both a divine and human institution. We read, we study, we question and above all, we pray. It is a lifelong journey!

Here are a few resources that may help in getting you started in your specific questions and you may want to go the the apologetics section of this forum for further direction:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/birth-control

http://www.concernedcatholics.org/birthcontrol.htm

http://www.catholic-truth.info/apolo...rthcontrol.htm

[InLight247]

Regardless the bigger issue of religious freedom, just the fact that there are many Catholic insurance companies, and many Catholic organizations are self-insured, Obama's accommodation won't work and it is not acceptable.

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by saraih

Condoms are available for sale in my local grocery shops. That is not the government interfering in my bedroom. .

Is the grocery owned and operated by the Catholic Church?

The people who make these decisions, real human beings, are Catholics. Not crummy liberal Catholics like me who don't want a Catholic Dictatorship to run the world, but people who take the Faith quite seriously, which I always thought I did but was apparently in error.

Now, these people, once they put into play a system that provides the means of killing the unborn are actually being forced into sin by - not a law - but by something somewhat regulatory.

It's not a good thing. And I think you'd agree, that if your corner is grocer is Catholic and the government says to keep his store open he is REQUIRED to sell condoms, well, that's an alternative pot of haddock.

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by MinkPink

Not to be a pain, but what does God think of contraceptives? .

It's a not about what God thinks of contraceptives, it's about our relationship with God. You cannot divorce contraception from everything else and make sense of it, it's like taking one Bible verse and trying to prove something.

Catholics cannot expect everyone else to share the Faith, and, we can only hope for our own to become close enough to Jesus Christ to have the true Faith that allows the surrender of our wills to Him required in the pursuit of true holiness. This is what Sacramental marriage and openness to the Will of God in procreation is about. To someone of faith, a child is never a "mistake."

That said, this level of faith and commitment is not only not easily obtained, it's mostly absent from these debates, which tend to focus on a rather scary level of fideism being considered "real Catholic."

Not, however, as scary as what has passed in Washington in the last decade. I'm glad something woke up the Catholics.

[Ridgerunner]

Originally Posted by MinkPink

Okay, again, not to be a pain, but I am genuinely curious how one would reconcile a God who sees sex as a procreative act only whereby fertilized eggs are considered fully human and the full point of sexual relations and the fact that millions of fertilized eggs fail to implant. why would God make our bodies so that 60 to 80 percent of embryos fail to implant in the uterus and are cleared out of a woman's body through her cycle each month? Why no rush to solve the crisis of natural embryo loss, amounting to millions upon millions each year?

You might as well ask why God decreed that every last one of us must die. Many theological works have been written on that subject.

But, notwithstanding that we are born to die, we are not allowed to kill.

Does that help?

[DKO]

Originally Posted by Tigg

It has been well documented for years that the enemies of the Church have a specific agenda within the ranks of radical feminism and liberation theology. There are recent threads with quotes if you care to know.

There was a letter to the editor in the Denver Post this morning. The letter was in reply to an op-ed piece written by the local Bishop the previous week. It was a letter against what the Bishop wrote, and in favor of the HHS mandate. It was written by a Catholic Sister. And we wonder why Catholics either don't believe or follow ALL of the teachings of the Church. It truly makes me ill.

[Tigg]

Originally Posted by DKO

There was a letter to the editor in the Denver Post this morning. The letter was in reply to an op-ed piece written by the local Bishop the previous week. It was a letter against what the Bishop wrote, and in favor of the HHS mandate. It was written by a Catholic Sister. And we wonder why Catholics either don't believe or follow ALL of the teachings of the Church. It truly makes me ill.

Well, heresy has been around since the beginning of the Church. Remember we even had early bishops who denied the Divinity of Christ. The Church will stand as it always has - the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic one, that is!

[Cursilista]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean here. Are you saying that the United States as constituted by our forefathers should not exist and that we should be ruled by a religious government?

I wasn't aware being an American made me a "liberal" Catholic. But that's probably not what you meant at all, so could you explain?

What i mean by the statement was that christian thinking is communal to a sense that we take care of those that are less fortunate. Those who have fallen on hard times. As a community within the Church we are generous with our charitable causes. The liberal front is that they profess the same charitable asperattions. Therefore when i said that liberal leaning Catholics may see that ideology as attractive, in that sense i can see the attraction for catholics. Afterall over 50 % of Catholics vote democrat.

Now here comes the part that i made a plea to liberals. please examine what this charity has accomplished in our society. Instead of taking care of those who have fallen on hard times, we have provided a means for plp to live off of this charity for generations. We have created a mentalility of someone else will pay for it. The Govt will take care of everything. As Cathoics our charities are localized, we know the true needs and abilities of those that are in need. Our goal is to get them back on their feet. The Govt is trying to take the place of the faith based charitable groups in each community. The gov't has taken over as a place of refuge for our people and pumps out checks to over 50 % of citizenry. They compete for our hearts and minds and the Church is their competition. The Gov't has the power too negate their competition with control of the media in forming opinions, Laws they inact that weakens their competition and they create such laws in such a way as to weaken society and social norms which we have had for centurys. Little by little these attacks have come from the liberal secular side of politics.

So the plea to the liberals was to examine both sides of the liberal agenda and descern earnestly as a catholic which side, liberal or conservative, truly stands for the basic christian principles

[Bubba Switzler]

Originally Posted by Cursilista

What i mean by the statement was that christian thinking is communal to a sense that we take care of those that are less fortunate. Those who have fallen on hard times. As a community within the Church we are generous with our charitable causes. The liberal front is that they profess the same charitable asperattions. Therefore when i said that liberal leaning Catholics may see that ideology as attractive, in that sense i can see the attraction for catholics. Afterall over 50 % of Catholics vote democrat.

Now here comes the part that i made a plea to liberals. please examine what this charity has accomplished in our society. Instead of taking care of those who have fallen on hard times, we have provided a means for plp to live off of this charity for generations. We have created a mentalility of someone else will pay for it. The Govt will take care of everything. As Cathoics our charities are localized, we know the true needs and abilities of those that are in need. Our goal is to get them back on their feet. The Govt is trying to take the place of the faith based charitable groups in each community. The gov't has taken over as a place of refuge for our people and pumps out checks to over 50 % of citizenry. They compete for our hearts and minds and the Church is their competition. The Gov't has the power too negate their competition with control of the media in forming opinions, Laws they inact that weakens their competition and they create such laws in such a way as to weaken society and social norms which we have had for centurys. Little by little these attacks have come from the liberal secular side of politics.

So the plea to the liberals was to examine both sides of the liberal agenda and descern earnestly as a catholic which side, liberal or conservative, truly stands for the basic christian principles

I applaud your charitable approach to liberal Catholics; these are all great points that deserve consideration. I would like to suggest another that deserves consideration as well: the implicit assumption that most liberal Catholics make is that voting for public benefits is an act of charity. While you have given several good reasons for questioning that, there is another starker one: charity of this kind essentially consists of making others give by force of law, it is being generous with the fruits of other people's labor, it is an abuse of the dignity of fellow citizens, albeit on behalf of the poor. The opaque nature of government serves to obscure this fact of life. And those who regard property as social rather than private will certainly not see this as an immoral means to an end, but Christians ought to.

Another point to consider is that when the Christians perform charity they are charitable not only with material goods but also with their love. Government bureaucracies are good at sending checks in the mail but that's about it, they cannot provide the kind of moral guidance that the Church can.