End of "First Communion" Celebrations in US Melkite Greek Catholic Church - Page 13

**Friar David, O.Carm** · #**181** Mar 23, '12, 6:09 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vico

To abide by the instructions of the magisterium, to keep the traditions, to restore the proper traditions. We read in:

Instruction for Applying the Liturgical Prescriptions of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches

Issued January 6, 1996 by the Congregation for the Eastern Churches - The Vatican Libreria Editrice Vaticana - 1996

CHAPTER VII

The Sacraments of Christian Initiation

42. The link between the sacraments of Initiation

An indication given by the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches that differs from the frequent use and even from the particular legislation of the last centuries is the affirmation of the strict link existing between the three sacraments of Christian Initiation, which also must result in the way of celebrating them. Initiation is, in reality, the one and indivisible celebration of the entrance into the life of Christ, into the community that lives in him. This entrance, initiated with the first call to the faith, reaches its culminating point in the Pascal Mystery of Christ, in whose death we are immersed to be raised in his resurrection which renders us children of God and the temple of the Spirit. "Anointed" by the Spirit for the work of the Kingdom, we are thus rendered fit to participate in the banquet of the Kingdom. This is the motivating factor in the composition of cann. 695 and 697 which prescribe the administration of the three sacraments of Baptism, Chrismation with the holy Myron, and Holy Communion in conjunction with or at least one not long after another.

According to the doctrine and practice of the ancient Church, inspired by the New Testament, the faithful who received the eschatological gift of the Spirit of the Risen accepted that the same Spirit operate in his or her person the assimilation to Christ the Lord. The baptismal rebirth as children of God, inheritors of the Kingdom, justified, redeemed and sanctified, entailed the full entrance into the people of God. The ultimate "sign" of this event was the admission to the banquet of the Kingdom. That indivisible sacrament was, therefore, necessarily conferred, with the most coherence, in a single celebrative context.

http://www.byzcath.org/faith/documents/instruction.htm

I am sorry if I am being dense but I get this way sometimes after treatment (which was yesterday).

So are you saying that what you posted is that you support what Bishop Nicholas is doing and that you agree that solemn first communion should not be practiced in the Melkite Church let alone any of the Byzantine rite Churches?

Vico · #**182** Mar 23, '12, 8:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ByzCath

I am sorry if I am being dense but I get this way sometimes after treatment (which was yesterday).

So are you saying that what you posted is that you support what Bishop Nicholas is doing and that you agree that solemn first communion should not be practiced in the Melkite Church let alone any of the Byzantine rite Churches?

Yes, I support Bishop Nicholas. Yes, it you define First Communion as the first time that the Mystery of the Holy Eucharist is received, then it is proper to be at the same time with Holy Baptism and Holy Chrismation. In my parish (Byzantine) for infant and adult neophytes all three are given at the same Divine Liturgy. For non-Orthodox converts, Holy Chrismation and Holy Eucharist at once.

brumano · #**183** Mar 27, '12, 1:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vico

Yes, I support Bishop Nicholas. Yes, it you define First Communion as the first time that the Mystery of the Holy Eucharist is received, then it is proper to be at the same time with Holy Baptism and Holy Chrismation. In my parish (Byzantine) for infant and adult neophytes all three are given at the same Divine Liturgy. For non-Orthodox converts, Holy Chrismation and Holy Eucharist at once.

Well maybe you can help him by pointing out to him which one of the codes of canon laws of the Eastern Churches was being violated, because he doesn't make any mention of anything like that in his letter. He may need this invaluable help in the future if as it turns out the Melkite Bishops, Pastors, Priests and a large number of the Melkite faithful in the Middle East, and here in his Eparchy have been practicing a Melkite Innovation ( that just so happens to assimilate Latin Eucharistic Theology) of their own spirituality that reconnects them with their very own more truly authentic Sacred Tradition. And let's face it, not all of the Melkite Church is going to just bow to Byzantium, about stopping and begging pardon, as if they should have to, a practice that is not only legititmate but is exceedingly good and beneficial to their children and the whole Catholic Church.

You know I think maybe the Byzantines maybe have to backtrack a little bit on some of these traditions of theirs; maybe there's some things that got missed about certain things that really are implicit dogmas of the Catholic Church, from it's begining in the Scriptures; we don't receive a Mystery of the Holy Eucharist at our First Communions or at any later Communions through our lives, we receive the real Body and Blood of Christ in the substance of the Host, there is an incomprehensible mystery surrounding the Sacrament but all is not Mystery as Byzantines seem to favor above substantial truths, and above the God given,Christ given, Holy Spirit given dignity of the human person to understand in a real way, and to fully communicate in the Sacraments as they were given, from abov

Your Byzantine parish is really gone off the deep end in it's anti traditional practices; did I understand you correctly that adult converts are chrismated and given communion without first having been baptized?

Hesychios · #**184** Mar 27, '12, 1:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brumano

Well maybe you can help him by pointing out to him which one of the codes of canon laws of the Eastern Churches was being violated, because he doesn't make any mention of anything like that in his letter. He may need this invaluable help in the future if as it turns out the Melkite Bishops, Pastors, Priests and a large number of the Melkite faithful in the Middle East, and here in his Eparchy have been practicing a Melkite Innovation ( that just so happens to assimilate Latin Eucharistic Theology) of their own spirituality that reconnects them with their very own more truly authentic Sacred Tradition. And let's face it, not all of the Melkite Church is going to just bow to Byzantium, about stopping and begging pardon, as if they should have to, a practice that is not only legititmate but is exceedingly good and beneficial to their children and the whole Catholic Church.

You know I think maybe the Byzantines maybe have to backtrack a little bit on some of these traditions of theirs; maybe there's some things that got missed about certain things that really are implicit dogmas of the Catholic Church, from it's begining in the Scriptures; we don't receive a Mystery of the Holy Eucharist at our First Communions or at any later Communions through our lives, we receive the real Body and Blood of Christ in the substance of the Host, there is an incomprehensible mystery surrounding the Sacrament but all is not Mystery as Byzantines seem to favor above substantial truths, and above the God given,Christ given, Holy Spirit given dignity of the human person to understand in a real way, and to fully communicate in the Sacraments as they were given, from abov

Your Byzantine parish is really gone off the deep end in it's anti traditional practices; did I understand you correctly that adult converts are chrismated and given communion without first having been baptized?

This is going to be interesting ...

RyanBlack · #**185** Mar 27, '12, 2:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brumano

Well maybe you can help him by pointing out to him which one of the codes of canon laws of the Eastern Churches was being violated, because he doesn't make any mention of anything like that in his letter.

I've pointed out multiple times in this thread which canons were being violated. However, I truly doubt Bishop Nicholas needs any of use here to point that out to him. I rather suspect he already knows.

**JharekCarnelian** · #**186** Mar 27, '12, 2:24 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hesychios

This is going to be interesting ...

Aye, In a train wreck sort of style....

RyanBlack · #**187** Mar 27, '12, 2:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brumano

Your Byzantine parish is really gone off the deep end in it's anti traditional practices; did I understand you correctly that adult converts are chrismated and given communion without first having been baptized?

No, you did not understand correctly. He was referring to converts who have already been baptized but have not yet been chrismated and admitted to communion. That seemed abundantly clear to me.

RyanBlack · #**188** Mar 27, '12, 2:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brumano

Your Byzantine parish is really gone off the deep end in it's anti traditional practices

What in the world are you talking about? What he has described is thoroughly consistent with tradition.

**JharekCarnelian** · #**189** Mar 27, '12, 2:29 pm

Quote:

You know I think maybe the Byzantines maybe have to backtrack a little bit on some of these traditions of theirs;

You know I was really hoping attitudes like that had died out in the Church as a whole. This whole 'one part of the Church is really Catholic and the other needs to knuckle under' is just cringe worthy.

RyanBlack · #**190** Mar 27, '12, 2:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brumano

And let's face it, not all of the Melkite Church is going to just bow to Byzantium, about stopping and begging pardon, as if they should have to, a practice that is not only legititmate but is exceedingly good and beneficial to their children and the whole Catholic Church.

No, it is not at all legitimate in a Byzantine context. It is in violation of the Eastern Code of Canon Law to celebrate either chrismation or admission to Holy Communion from baptism without true necessity, which I have demonstrated more than once in this thread.

**JharekCarnelian** · #**191** Mar 27, '12, 2:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by brumano

And let's face it, not all of the Melkite Church is going to just bow to Byzantium, about stopping and begging pardon, as if they should have to, a practice that is not only legititmate but is exceedingly good and beneficial to their children and the whole Catholic Church.

SaintPatrick333 · #**192** Mar 27, '12, 2:38 pm

Say what you will but Roman Catholic is where its at. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and it is where you can experience the truest purest form of Catholicism. All this attacking demeanor towards the Roman Catholic Church is sad. No wonder the world sees Catholicism as just another christian sect as opposed to Christianity itself. So much dissent. If Catholics can't unite how in the hell can anyone hope to unite protestants and non denominational christians, let alone atheists/agnostics/heretics/satanists/muslims/everyone else who isn't christian, under Christ in His Church?

**JharekCarnelian** · #**193** Mar 27, '12, 2:41 pm

[quote=SaintPatrick333;9115014]

Quote:

Say what you will but Roman Catholic is where its at.

The Roman Catholic Church is not more Catholic than the sui juris Churches and they are not more Catholic than it. Both are EQUALLY Catholic. A point our present Pope has expressed many times.

Quote:

The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and it is where you can experience the truest purest form of Catholicism. All this attacking demeanor towards the Roman Catholic Church is sad.

I hav seen no attacks toward the Roman Catholic Church thus far in this thread.

RyanBlack · #**194** Mar 27, '12, 2:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintPatrick333

Say what you will but Roman Catholic is where its at. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ on earth and it is where you can experience the truest purest form of Catholicism. All this attacking demeanor towards the Roman Catholic Church is sad. No wonder the world sees Catholicism as just another christian sect as opposed to Christianity itself. So much dissent. If Catholics can't unite how in the hell can anyone hope to unite protestants and non denominational christians, let alone atheists/agnostics/heretics/satanists/muslims/everyone else who isn't christian, under Christ in His Church?

NO ONE is this thread is attaching the Roman Catholic Church, but I have seen quite a bit of attacking of the Eastern Catholic Churches, included in this absurd statement that the Roman Catholic Church is the "truest, purest form of Catholicism"--something I feel quite sure the Vicar of Christ himself would repudiate.

**JharekCarnelian** · #**195** Mar 27, '12, 2:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanBlack

NO ONE is this thread is attaching the Roman Catholic Church, but I have seen quite a bit of attacking of the Eastern Catholic Churches, included in this absurd statement that the Roman Catholic Church is the "truest, purest form of Catholicism"--something I feel quite sure the Vicar of Christ himself would repudiate.

He has indeed many times.