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  #1  
Old Feb 15, '12, 6:31 am
NFrancis NFrancis is offline
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Default Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

I am planning on commenting on this article that my brother showed me on facebook. It talks about in one instance Santorum voted against highering the minimum wage against the opinion of the USCCB and different things were it appears Catholic politicians ignored Catholic social doctrine. Actually I'll just give you a link if it helps.
http://www.alternet.org/story/154122...ontrol/?page=1

oh yeah, sorry if this is the wrong place for this.
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  #2  
Old Feb 15, '12, 6:54 am
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MarcoPolo MarcoPolo is offline
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

Abortion and contraception are intrinsic evils. It is a big difference to go against Church teaching on that matter vs. something like whether minimum wage should be raised. There is no comparison between the Bishops' stance against abortion and contraception vs. their position on minimum wage. In fact none of the teaching cited in your link pertain to intrinsic evils. The statement that the Bishops "require" health care for all Americans is silly for that author to point out because his very link references how the Bishops advocate health care which does not include abortion and contraception. And the Bishops language do not "require" this to come from government - the brochure the author links to supports a "system" in which all can get healthcare - so Santorum is not opposed to them on principle. Who doesn't advocate health care for all? The link is shoddy political speak at best - doesn't grasp an intrinsic evil versus subjective solutions to unemployment, wages, etc...
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  #3  
Old Feb 15, '12, 7:20 am
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GaryTaylor GaryTaylor is offline
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

Personally IMHO the entire argument is moot.

The debate is now over Religious Freedom, Obama Heath Care which forces Christians to act against their conscious, and is in direct conflict with the US Constitution and the 1st Ammendment. And very idea of seperation of church and state by Jefferson which "is" to "protect" the church from the state. How twisted this has become. Nor does this appear in the Constitution as many would suggest. Simply was detracted from a "letter" to the Baptist Chruch by Jefferson, the same President who held Christian service at the White House every Sunday he was in Washington. Here resides the real issue.

All these other points are simply a poor act of deception which distract from the real issue on the table at the moment.

The fact that for example all social/political secular goverments promote a military which kills, only indicates the worlds inability to comprehend and accept the teachings of the CC and of Christ on the Sermon on the Mount. Which in fact is nonresistence not an eye for an eye.

Unfortunate Christians/Catholics in an imperfect world still oblivious to Christ by large must partake in this situation, which in many ways in inconsistant with Christainity. However, without this obtained goal, true change by Christians on morals and faith as outlined by the CC, have no chance of success in the political arena.

Thus if the choice is to stop the cooperation with murder on a mass scale with Planned parenthood and forced Obama Care against ones Faith/Conscious and the Constitution, as opposed to the aspect of minimum wage. Id say the priority is life and religious freedom.

Unfortunate the perfect world is yet to come.
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  #4  
Old Feb 15, '12, 7:20 am
MagnusFide MagnusFide is offline
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

On issues of abortion, contraception, and other hot topics related to murder and other heinous mortal sins and including such major sins as homosexual marriage, the answer is NO. The politician who promotes these sins and disobeys the Church on these matters excommunicates himself or herself as in the case of Nancy Pelosi.

Fair pay is mandated by the Feds and voting against a bill on wages could also mean that attached to that bill was a rider that funds abortion clinics or some other evil. A politician has to base his votes on the attachments to bills too, not just the main bill. That article was most likely a Dem attempt at sullying Santorum's reputation. Political tactics are lies and damnable lies. Look at the voting records and bill sponsorships to make your choices for political office. Those are facts, not propaganda in an election year.
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  #5  
Old Feb 15, '12, 7:47 am
superamazingman superamazingman is offline
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

I'd like to point out that the USCCB has no real authority over american Catholics. Did you know that the usccb has directly reccemended that catholics disobey the rubrics in the missal concerning the holy thursday foot washing, even though Rome intervened and specifically clarified that the rubric means that only men may have their foot washed. Yet the page is still on their website advocating disobidience, even after Rome got involved. But not only do they advocate for disobidience, they even come out and say that they are:
While this variation may differ from the rubric of the Sacramentary which mentions only men ("viri selecti"), it may nevertheless be said that the intention to emphasize service along with charity in the celebration of the rite is an understandable way of accentuating the evangelical command of the Lord, "who came to serve and not to be served," that all members of the Church must serve one another in love.
from: http://old.usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/general/feet.shtml
(Read: "the missal says to do X, but we think you should do the opposite, since Christ told us to serve all people.")

In short, no catholic in the US is bound to obedience to the USCCB.
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  #6  
Old Feb 15, '12, 8:38 am
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Joe 5859 Joe 5859 is offline
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

There are two meanings to "USCCB". The first is the collective of all the U.S. bishops. The second is the central office in Washington DC which consists of dozens of departments and employs several hundred people.

Not every statement that originates from the "USCCB" has the full force of all the bishops behind it. Sometimes, it might be a statement issued by just one department. That statement was probably drafted by the lay staff working in that office. It may have the approval of whoever their episcopal liason is. But even if it does, that doesn't mean it was brought before the whole body of bishops and voted upon. Sadly, the media makes no differentiation. Anything that comes out on USCCB letterhead is treated as though every single bishop in the country is in unanimous agreement.

That article in the OP is misleading and vastly oversimplifies the issues. It attempts to force the bishops into a particular point of view that goes beyond anything they have said.

What is going on with the HHS mandate is in a completely different league. Here we have virtually 100% of the U.S. bishops speaking out forcefully about how this mandate violates religious freedom and that we "cannot -- will not -- comply with this unjust law". In the other case, you have one Bishop who is head of the relevant committee sending a letter to Congress encouraging them to raise minimum wage. The two are not comparable.

Certainly, a Catholic politician should not casually dismiss something that any bishop brings up. But there are certain issues where there is room for differences in prudential judgment. If Santorum or Gingrich disagreed with the bishop because they thought it wasn't important for people to be able to support their families, that would be a problem. If they said that they wanted to avoid an increase in federal minimum wage because they thought it was better handled on a local or state level (since the cost of living varies quite a lot from place to place) or because they didn't think the high school kid at the fast food place needs to earn enough to support a family of four, then their disagreement is not over Catholic social justice teaching but over what the best policy is to support that teaching.

(Note, I don't pretend to know enough about Santorum's or Gingrich's history on this issue to know why they did what they did, but I'm just throwing it out there as one possible reason that a Catholic might choose to disagree with that bishop's request.)

The HHS mandate is completely different. There is no way to paint the requirement of Catholics and the Catholic Church to finance immoral activity as simply a prudential difference of opinion on policy. It is not about policy but about a violation of principle.
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The more I follow the online discussions ... the more I follow the debates and disagreements in the Church about administrative unity, or the concerns expressed about the moral or personal or administrative or leadership failings of the bishops or the clergy, the more I become convinced that whatever might be the truth of these concerns, ALL of this is simply a distraction. No, itís more than that. Itís a justification, an excuse, for not helping each other and those outside the Church fall in love with Jesus Christ. How easy it is to talk about everything, but about Jesus hardly at all.

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  #7  
Old Feb 15, '12, 5:43 pm
Ignatius Ignatius is offline
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFrancis View Post
I am planning on commenting on this article that my brother showed me on facebook. It talks about in one instance Santorum voted against highering the minimum wage against the opinion of the USCCB and different things were it appears Catholic politicians ignored Catholic social doctrine. Actually I'll just give you a link if it helps.
http://www.alternet.org/story/154122...ontrol/?page=1

oh yeah, sorry if this is the wrong place for this.
There are de-fide required teachings, for example that abortion, contraception and pornography are intrinsically evil. No one can support any intrinsic evil and be in full communion with the Catholic Faith. There are others, such as social doctrines which are a matter of prudential judgment for each individual. You can see an example of this in the change from support of Obamacare by someBishops since they realized that this is actually leading to the destruction of Religious Liberty and protection of conscience by unelected bureaucrats. The Catechism of The Catholic Church explains all this superbly. You can get one for under $5. Get to know your faith, you'll be glad you did.
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  #8  
Old Feb 15, '12, 6:38 pm
thenobes thenobes is offline
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

SAM,

You're wrong about the quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superamazingman View Post
While this variation may differ from the rubric of the Sacramentary which mentions only men ("viri selecti"), it may nevertheless be said that the intention to emphasize service along with charity in the celebration of the rite is an understandable way of accentuating the evangelical command of the Lord, "who came to serve and not to be served," that all members of the Church must serve one another in love.
from: http://old.usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/general/feet.shtml
(Read: "the missal says to do X, but we think you should do the opposite, since Christ told us to serve all people.")
Actually the quote doesn't say to do anything other than that which the rubrics state.

What the quote is saying however, is that the symbolic meaning of the washing is that we should all, men or women, be serving each other, following the example of our Lord toward those He anointed to the leadership of the Church.

peace
steve
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  #9  
Old Feb 16, '12, 6:35 am
superamazingman superamazingman is offline
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thenobes View Post
SAM,

You're wrong about the quote.



Actually the quote doesn't say to do anything other than that which the rubrics state.

What the quote is saying however, is that the symbolic meaning of the washing is that we should all, men or women, be serving each other, following the example of our Lord toward those He anointed to the leadership of the Church.

peace
steve
Actually, if you read the whole thing in context, this quote actually is used to justify the disobedience from the rubrics. Here's a little more:

4. Because the gospel of the mandatum read on Holy Thursday also depicts Jesus as the "Teacher and Lord" who humbly serves his disciples by performing this extraordinary gesture which goes beyond the laws of hospitality, the element of humble service has accentuated the celebration of the foot washing rite in the United States over the last decade or more. In this regard, it has become customary in many places to invite both men and women to be participants in this rite in recognition of the service that should be given by all the faithful to the Church and to the world. Thus, in the United States, a variation in the rite developed in which not only charity is signified but also humble service.

5. While this variation may differ from the rubric of the Sacramentary which mentions only men ("viri selecti"), it may nevertheless be said that the intention to emphasize service along with charity in the celebration of the rite is an understandable way of accentuating the evangelical command of the Lord, "who came to serve and not to be served," that all members of the Church must serve one another in love.
This paragraph is clearly being used to justify the disobedience.

Read the whole page, and you'll see what I mean:
http://old.usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/general/feet.shtml
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  #10  
Old Feb 17, '12, 10:46 am
NFrancis NFrancis is offline
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

Ok, thanks everyone. I'm just wondering, some women use hormonal contraceptives for reasons other than birth control like preventing excessive menstrual bleeding. What should Catholic organizations do with there insurance in this regard? Would women just not be able to get the hormonal drugs from the insurance and have to buy it themselves? And if so, could poor people afford this?
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  #11  
Old Feb 17, '12, 11:16 am
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Joe 5859 Joe 5859 is offline
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFrancis View Post
Ok, thanks everyone. I'm just wondering, some women use hormonal contraceptives for reasons other than birth control like preventing excessive menstrual bleeding. What should Catholic organizations do with there insurance in this regard? Would women just not be able to get the hormonal drugs from the insurance and have to buy it themselves? And if so, could poor people afford this?
I won't pretend to know the ins-and-outs of crafting an insurance policy, but I would imagine that a prescription for "the pill" for medical purposes would be billed differently than for contraceptive purposes.
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The more I follow the online discussions ... the more I follow the debates and disagreements in the Church about administrative unity, or the concerns expressed about the moral or personal or administrative or leadership failings of the bishops or the clergy, the more I become convinced that whatever might be the truth of these concerns, ALL of this is simply a distraction. No, itís more than that. Itís a justification, an excuse, for not helping each other and those outside the Church fall in love with Jesus Christ. How easy it is to talk about everything, but about Jesus hardly at all.

- Fr. Gregory Jensen
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  #12  
Old Feb 17, '12, 11:41 am
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iloveangels iloveangels is offline
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

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Originally Posted by Joe 5859 View Post
I won't pretend to know the ins-and-outs of crafting an insurance policy, but I would imagine that a prescription for "the pill" for medical purposes would be billed differently than for contraceptive purposes.
There's a diagnosis code on the paperwork the doctor submits to the insurance agency. That diagnosis code is very clear about what's being billed. The insurance agency can tell. Not only that, but they keep track of these codes, and use them as information on medical statistics. They want to know so they can adjust their rates accordingly if certain diagnoses get more common or less common.

You have to have the diagnosis code so that your bill can be paid by the insurance.
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Old Feb 17, '12, 11:45 am
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFrancis View Post
Ok, thanks everyone. I'm just wondering, some women use hormonal contraceptives for reasons other than birth control like preventing excessive menstrual bleeding. What should Catholic organizations do with there insurance in this regard? Would women just not be able to get the hormonal drugs from the insurance and have to buy it themselves? And if so, could poor people afford this?
This is a ruse. When your doctor submits a bill to the insurance company, there's a diagnosis code on the bill, so the insurance agency knows exactly what it's paying for. The diagnosis codes are different for birth control for the sake of birth control and pill for the sake of limiting flow etc etc. Different amounts of money are paid out for different diagnosis codes.

Most people have the same insurance company for the pharmacy as they do for the doctor. The insurance keeps track of this stuff and logs trends. It's all in their computers. They know this stuff...

The naivety in here is astonishing. Don't you guys ever talk to your insurance companies??
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  #14  
Old Feb 17, '12, 12:11 pm
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Joe 5859 Joe 5859 is offline
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by iloveangels View Post
The naivety in here is astonishing. Don't you guys ever talk to your insurance companies??
I try to avoid it whenever possible.

If you can make sense of those Explanation of Benefits pages, I congratulate you.

In all seriousness, what you say makes sense and is pretty much what I figured. Having never been billed for birth control for any reason, I wasn't 100% certain how it was handled, so I didn't want to guess.
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The more I follow the online discussions ... the more I follow the debates and disagreements in the Church about administrative unity, or the concerns expressed about the moral or personal or administrative or leadership failings of the bishops or the clergy, the more I become convinced that whatever might be the truth of these concerns, ALL of this is simply a distraction. No, itís more than that. Itís a justification, an excuse, for not helping each other and those outside the Church fall in love with Jesus Christ. How easy it is to talk about everything, but about Jesus hardly at all.

- Fr. Gregory Jensen
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  #15  
Old Feb 23, '12, 7:02 pm
Ignatius Ignatius is offline
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Default Re: Can a Catholic politician in good conscience go against the USCCB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFrancis View Post
Ok, thanks everyone. I'm just wondering, some women use hormonal contraceptives for reasons other than birth control like preventing excessive menstrual bleeding. What should Catholic organizations do with there insurance in this regard? Would women just not be able to get the hormonal drugs from the insurance and have to buy it themselves? And if so, could poor people afford this?
This is a specious and false method of arguing. There are many other ways of treating this condition, but doctors take the lazy approach and just hand out the pill which often has worse side effects than what they are treating. There has been tremendous progress in alternate treatments in the last 10 years or so, If you go to a doctor faithful to authentic Catholic teaching, you will be amazed at the variety of much more effective therapies available.
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