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  #1  
Old Feb 16, '12, 7:21 pm
Zeldarocks Zeldarocks is offline
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Default 1 John 2:27

Another debate was had with my dad; he attempted to substantiate the lack of need for a Pope or the Magisterium, instead insisting on absolute reliance on the Holy Spirit, here's his text:

1 John 2:27
"But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him."

How do you combat against that passage?
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  #2  
Old Feb 16, '12, 7:58 pm
thistle thistle is online now
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Default Re: 1 John 2:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldarocks View Post
Another debate was had with my dad; he attempted to substantiate the lack of need for a Pope or the Magisterium, instead insisting on absolute reliance on the Holy Spirit, here's his text:

1 John 2:27
"But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him."

How do you combat against that passage?
D-R Bible, Haydock Commentary:

Ver. 27. You have no need, &c. You want not to be taught by any of these men, who, under pretence of imparting more knowledge to you, seek to seduce you, (ver. 26) since you are sufficiently taught already, and have all knowledge and grace in the Church, with the unction of the Holy Ghost, which these new teachers have no share in. (Challoner) --- His unction teacheth you concerning all things. Unction here signifies the doctrine which they received together with the Holy Ghost or Spirit of God; in which he exhorts them to remain, as being sufficient for their instruction, and to make them avoid the new teachers of false doctrine. (Witham)
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  #3  
Old Feb 16, '12, 8:20 pm
CalCatholic CalCatholic is offline
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Default Re: 1 John 2:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldarocks View Post
Another debate was had with my dad; he attempted to substantiate the lack of need for a Pope or the Magisterium, instead insisting on absolute reliance on the Holy Spirit, here's his text:

1 John 2:27
"But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him."

How do you combat against that passage?
This is what happens when some one picks and chooses verses from the Bible and uses them as an authority to back their position. I could counter with another verse like; "If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of truth." (1Tim 3:15). Of course this verse is mentioned after Paul talks to Timothy about the qualifications for Bishops and Deacons. I would just remind your dad, that it was the Catholic Church which formed the canon of the New Testament scriptures (over three centuries) of which he is quoting from to prove that you don't need a magesterium.
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  #4  
Old Feb 16, '12, 9:36 pm
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: 1 John 2:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldarocks View Post
Another debate was had with my dad; he attempted to substantiate the lack of need for a Pope or the Magisterium, instead insisting on absolute reliance on the Holy Spirit, here's his text:

1 John 2:27
"But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him."

How do you combat against that passage?
Yes,everyone relies on the Holy Spirit. That's how we got such a huge range of beliefs in Christianity. Guess God just loves diversity, disunity, heresy, apostasy, etc.
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  #5  
Old Feb 17, '12, 5:07 am
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COPLAND 3 COPLAND 3 is offline
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Default Re: 1 John 2:27

Here is the footnote from the Aquinas Study Bible


2:27 It means,*you need not go to false apostles and heretics to teach you the truth, for you have already learned it from the Apostles themselves, and that which they taught outwardly, the Holy Spirit must needs teach you within... Bellarmine, (de Verbo Dei, 3.3), who says, “You have no need for a Lutheran or Calvinist to teach you Christian doctrine, because you have been fully taught it by the teaching of the Church, and the aid of the Holy Spirit.”* And St. Augustine thus writes. “I for my part have spoken to all. But they to whom that unction speaks not within, they whom the Holy Spirit teaches not, go away untaught. The outward teachings of a master are a kind of aid and warning, but He who teaches the heart has His seat in heaven. . . . One is your master, even Christ. Let Him speak to you within, when no one is present. For though some one is at*your side, yet there is no one in*your heart. Let there be no one in*your heart, let Christ be in*your heart, let His unction be in*your heart, lest*your heart be athirst in the desert, and have no fountains to water it. The Master who teaches is within, Christ teaches, His inspiration teaches. But where His inspiration and His unction are not, words echo in vain from without.” And so too St. Gregory, expounding these very words, says, “Unless the same spirit be in the heart of the hearer the words of the teacher are useless;” and he adds, “Do not ascribe to the teacher that which*you hear from his lips, for unless He who really teaches you be within, the tongue of the teacher labours outwardly in vain.” (Cornelius a Lapide)
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  #6  
Old Feb 17, '12, 8:46 pm
fred conty fred conty is offline
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Default Re: 1 John 2:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldarocks View Post
Another debate was had with my dad; he attempted to substantiate the lack of need for a Pope or the Magisterium, instead insisting on absolute reliance on the Holy Spirit, here's his text:

1 John 2:27
"But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him."

How do you combat against that passage?
If the passages before this and after this are read, we can see that they are being warned away from those who are teaching error. I don't believe I saw in that passage any particular person or group named as such. It isn't in the Bible. So if it isn't in the Bible, then he should agree that it can't be used.

As your father used this verse out of context, it could be applied to his pastor, or any other religious organization.

Just a thought.
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  #7  
Old Feb 17, '12, 9:45 pm
Trevor Stamm Trevor Stamm is offline
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Default Re: 1 John 2:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldarocks View Post
Another debate was had with my dad; he attempted to substantiate the lack of need for a Pope or the Magisterium, instead insisting on absolute reliance on the Holy Spirit, here's his text:

1 John 2:27
"But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him."

How do you combat against that passage?
Easy, two people holding conflicting views both claim they have the Holy Spirit. Who's right? You have now just destroyed Protestantism and declared a need for central authority.
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  #8  
Old Feb 18, '12, 7:58 am
Zeldarocks Zeldarocks is offline
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Default Re: 1 John 2:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Stamm View Post
Easy, two people holding conflicting views both claim they have the Holy Spirit. Who's right? You have now just destroyed Protestantism and declared a need for central authority.
On that point, my dad claims that most of the Protestant denominations hold the central dogmas in agreement with one another; that most of the disagreements are over peripheral issues.
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  #9  
Old Feb 19, '12, 4:20 pm
thistle thistle is online now
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Default Re: 1 John 2:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldarocks View Post
On that point, my dad claims that most of the Protestant denominations hold the central dogmas in agreement with one another; that most of the disagreements are over peripheral issues.
Like what?
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  #10  
Old Feb 19, '12, 6:13 pm
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: 1 John 2:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred conty View Post
If the passages before this and after this are read, we can see that they are being warned away from those who are teaching error. I don't believe I saw in that passage any particular person or group named as such. It isn't in the Bible. So if it isn't in the Bible, then he should agree that it can't be used.

As your father used this verse out of context, it could be applied to his pastor, or any other religious organization.

Just a thought.
Fred makes more than just a passing thought here. This is imporant.

Just prior to the verse in question, John writes the following;
Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life. I write you these things about those who would deceive you. (1 John 2:24-26)
The entire purpose of 1 John is avoiding specific doctrinal errors which were present in the early Church.
Children, let no one deceive you. (1 John 3:7)

For this is the message you have heard from the beginning: (1 John 3:11)

We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit. (1 John 4:6)
If the Holy Spirit teaches each of us individually, why did John say things like this?



-Tim-
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  #11  
Old Feb 19, '12, 7:10 pm
fred conty fred conty is offline
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Default Re: 1 John 2:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldarocks View Post
On that point, my dad claims that most of the Protestant denominations hold the central dogmas in agreement with one another; that most of the disagreements are over peripheral issues.
They disagree on what is necessary for salvation, and that is more than peripheral.

Some of them say that only thru their church can one be saved.

Pastors and church boards have stated in church documents what their members must accept.

If it is only perpherial issues they dissagree about, then why do they split so often and so many times and are now between 33 to 40 thousand denominations. That sounds like a lot more than peripherals, maybe more like serious dissagreements, or confusion about what is important to be walking away from one another.

Just a thought about the importance of peripherals.
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  #12  
Old Feb 19, '12, 7:57 pm
Nate13 Nate13 is offline
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Default Re: 1 John 2:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeldarocks View Post
On that point, my dad claims that most of the Protestant denominations hold the central dogmas in agreement with one another; that most of the disagreements are over peripheral issues.
Ask any atheist whether they believe Christianity is "one body". They would probably just laugh. I'd also ask if abortion being wrong is a basic?
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