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  #46  
Old Feb 19, '12, 12:00 pm
GEddie GEddie is online now
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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Originally Posted by MindOverMatter2 View Post
Memories are physical?

So when i think of a blue elephant, there is literally a tiny blue elephant in my brain?
Not an elephant, per se, but a neuronic representation of it flashing in your head.

The human-mind equivalent of ASCII/JPEG/MP4 or what have you

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  #47  
Old Feb 19, '12, 12:18 pm
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Julia Mae Julia Mae is offline
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
We do know that in the human head/body, when there is no more electrical energy, there is no thinking, either.
No, we actually know that's incorrect. People who are brain dead with no electrical activity whatsoever registering on an EEG have been revived and have memories of things that happened while they were supposedly "dead."

You believe you know something but what you actually have is a belief-system, not a fact-based apprehension of reality. You also have stated you are a Catholic Christian, yet you espouse beliefs antithetical to that assertion.

IOW, you seem to believe we do not survive the death of the body as individuals with consciousness who pass on to new life.
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  #48  
Old Feb 19, '12, 12:46 pm
tonyrey tonyrey is offline
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
But you don't know that, you believe it. This is not something that can be proven, not in terms of science. It's just a cultural understanding, not a fact.
To be precise, Julia, it's a secular cultural understanding...
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  #49  
Old Feb 19, '12, 12:54 pm
tonyrey tonyrey is offline
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
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And when we die do we no longer have thoughts?
I've heard a priest say exactly that.
What were his exact words?

Quote:
And if what Aquinas said is true, your memory is physical, and therefore would die with your head.
It has a physical component...
Quote:
What then would you think about, even if thought were possible?
God, yourself, other persons, their thoughts and feelings, spiritual activities, philosophical issues, moral questions and all the other subjects in which you are interested...
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  #50  
Old Feb 19, '12, 1:32 pm
GEddie GEddie is online now
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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No, we actually know that's incorrect. People who are brain dead with no electrical activity whatsoever registering on an EEG have been revived and have memories of things that happened while they were supposedly "dead."
Ok, if you want to use near-death experience as a "proof". Problem is, there is no way to establish that this is anything but the dying head giving it's owner one last show before the light goes out.

I'd be the first to trip the light fantastic if the NDE were established as a true phenomenon. It has not been.

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  #51  
Old Feb 19, '12, 1:39 pm
GEddie GEddie is online now
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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Originally Posted by tonyrey View Post
What were his exact words?
"The soul goes on; but there is no power of thought until physical resurrection."

Note, I'm not preaching that, that is just what I was told.
Quote:

It has a physical component...

God, yourself, other persons, their thoughts and feelings, spiritual activities, philosophical issues, moral questions and all the other subjects in which you are interested...
Remember I'm assuming the Aquinas perspective that memory is physical. Without a memory, and without your body, what "self" would be left? You'd know literally nothing! Not even the philosophy you are so fond of! You simply would not remember.

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  #52  
Old Feb 19, '12, 1:53 pm
tonyrey tonyrey is offline
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
"The soul goes on; but there is no power of thought until physical resurrection."

Note, I'm not preaching that, that is just what I was told.

Remember I'm assuming the Aquinas perspective that memory is physical. Without a memory, and without your body, what "self" would be left? You'd know literally nothing! Not even the philosophy you are so fond of! You simply would not remember.

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I'm sure St Thomas would be the last person to claim he was infallible!

A soul without a self seems to be an oxymoron. The mind is associated with rationality and self-control. If the mind is the result of brain activity and disappears at death free will is an illusion and physicalism is true! Or there is a ghost in the machine...
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  #53  
Old Feb 19, '12, 2:10 pm
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
Ok, if you want to use near-death experience as a "proof".
First, when we refer to evidence we do not call it proof, as evidence is simply that. The issue is that all brain activity has ceased. No electrical impulses. The memories that the person has on recovery are of the actions and procedures that were going on while they had no electrical activity in the brain. That is: they identify and describe what happened in the room, and sometimes outside of it, while their brains were without any electrical activity.

They recall a coherent time frame that has a cooresponding read-out from an EEG that is confirmed by medical personnel and their own reports of their activities during those times. This evidence is especially compelling in the case of blind persons who accurately describe things they cannot see while conscious.

This is evidence, contrary to what you have stated as "known" fact that consciousness and thought are dependent on electrical activity in the brain, that thought and consciousness are not dependent on that.

IOW, you don't know what you believe you know, you only believe what you think you know.

Please answer this question directly:

Do you believe in life after death in that you, with your consciousness intact, will survive the death of your body?
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  #54  
Old Feb 19, '12, 2:14 pm
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Julia Mae Julia Mae is offline
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
"The soul goes on; but there is no power of thought until physical resurrection."
Sounds Protestant to me. But then, I knew a priest who didn't believe in the Eucharist, either. That's too bad but not evidentiary and not reflective of Church teaching.
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  #55  
Old Feb 19, '12, 2:19 pm
tonyrey tonyrey is offline
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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Originally Posted by tonyrey View Post
I'm sure St Thomas would be the last person to claim he was infallible!

A soul without a self seems to be an oxymoron. The mind is associated with rationality and self-control. If the mind is the result of brain activity and disappears at death free will is an illusion and physicalism is true! Or there is a ghost in the machine...
To be more precise a human soul without a self seems to be an oxymoron but that does not imply that animals have no soul and are merely biological machines...
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  #56  
Old Feb 19, '12, 2:38 pm
GEddie GEddie is online now
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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Originally Posted by Julia Mae View Post
Sounds Protestant to me. But then, I knew a priest who didn't believe in the Eucharist, either. That's too bad but not evidentiary and not reflective of Church teaching.
Actually, he got it from Aquinas, or said he did.

Not all Protestants would accept that statement. The teaching of soul-sleep is hotly debated among Protestants (I've been one).

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  #57  
Old Feb 19, '12, 2:40 pm
GEddie GEddie is online now
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

Julia Mae:

What do you mean by "consciousness?"

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
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  #58  
Old Feb 19, '12, 3:02 pm
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Julia Mae Julia Mae is offline
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
Julia Mae:

What do you mean by "consciousness?"

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
Awareness of self as separate from whatever is not self.
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  #59  
Old Feb 19, '12, 3:04 pm
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
(I've been one).

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Me, too. But luckily I was barely paying attention!

Aquinas - well - he's all online, I wonder if there is a passage we can find that would generate that sort of comment?
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  #60  
Old Feb 19, '12, 3:27 pm
Trevor Stamm Trevor Stamm is offline
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Default Re: I Think Therefore I Am

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Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
Actually, he got it from Aquinas, or said he did.
I'm a Thomist and never have read such a thing. That priest have a source?
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