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  #46  
Old Feb 20, '12, 10:14 am
Publisher Publisher is offline
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

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Publisher...

The Jewish people who are faithful to God are already in God. And that baptizing Jewish children into Catholicism was done by few groups of people. But I don't know the history of such, but know that this was done during WWII by Polish families who saved these children from certain death.

God sees the big picture and our hearts.

But it is the practice that the Church validate the great faith of the Jewish people, the First People of Faith. We do not try to convert them.

In the Hebrew Catholic experience, for many they were told by priests they were already believers in God and not to bother becoming Catholic....but these insisted...

Try to read their articles and witnesses, Chosen People included...They are a most highly educated people and most humanitarian and humble.

My Jewish friend told me the Jewish kids in the local area visited the various churches, and when asked which one would they join if not remaining Jewish...they said Quaker.
There are Jewish people who attend Meeting from time to time.

My post was not in regard to Catholics baptizing Jewish children...although I think that is very very wrong...but as one who has been on the "receiving end" of well meaning Catholics who said if they would have been one of the nurses on duty when my son was born...and died minutes later...they would have baptized him.

We had a discussion on this fourm a while back about such a situation...I was surprised at how many Catholics supported the scenario of baptizing someone's child against the parents will.

Mormons who do their work on behalf of the dead do so because their faith teaches it.....and those of us who do not believe "work on behalf of the dead" really accomplishes nothing for the deceased.....while an "oddity" to me it is less reprehensible to me than baptizing a child into the Catholic faith against the will and desires of the parents who happen to hold a differnt faith tradition than Catholics.

Nothing more....it was not an indictment against anyone....violating the religious beliefs of the living to me is wrong....there is no way the religious beliefs of the dead can be viloated by the living that has any effect on the dead...but violating the faith of the living to me is worse.
  #47  
Old Feb 20, '12, 10:45 am
RebeccaJ RebeccaJ is offline
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

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Nothing more....it was not an indictment against anyone....violating the religious beliefs of the living to me is wrong....there is no way the religious beliefs of the dead can be viloated by the living that has any effect on the dead...but violating the faith of the living to me is worse.
I think a notable difference is that there are no Catholic ministries who seek out non-Catholic babies in order to sneak in a baptism while the parents aren't looking. Mormons devote a LOT of time to proxy baptisms of other people, without a thought at all about the wishes of these people's immediate family, or even the person themselves. Ignoring their lives entirely. They are following LDS church teaching.

I am sorry to hear of your son's death. People who say they would have baptized him are well intentioned, but they are not following Church teaching. I know people who had the desire to sneak in a baptism, counciled with clergy about it, and were told absolutely not, that it was a choice made by the parents for their child.
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  #48  
Old Feb 20, '12, 10:54 am
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

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I think a notable difference is that there are no Catholic ministries who seek out non-Catholic babies in order to sneak in a baptism while the parents aren't looking. Mormons devote a LOT of time to proxy baptisms of other people, without a thought at all about the wishes of these people's immediate family, or even the person themselves. Ignoring their lives entirely. They are following LDS church teaching.

I am sorry to hear of your son's death. People who say they would have baptized him are well intentioned, but they are not following Church teaching. I know people who had the desire to sneak in a baptism, counciled with clergy about it, and were told absolutely not, that it was a choice made by the parents for their child.
I guess it's all perspective.....while no "official" Catholic organization exists which does secret baptisms for children or the dying, obviously there are Catholics who engage in the practice.....if you find the thread I speak of...you will see while many are well meaning....the act was not decried nearly as much as Mormon's baptizing on behalf of the dead....work for dead relatives is part of Mormon belief and does not violate the dead's "will" as they are beyond the cares and results that occur in this world on their behalf.....the Mormon's who work on behalf of the dead also have the best of intentions..
  #49  
Old Feb 20, '12, 11:14 am
RebeccaJ RebeccaJ is offline
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

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I guess it's all perspective.....while no "official" Catholic organization exists which does secret baptisms for children or the dying, obviously there are Catholics who engage in the practice.....if you find the thread I speak of...you will see while many are well meaning....the act was not decried nearly as much as Mormon's baptizing on behalf of the dead....work for dead relatives is part of Mormon belief and does not violate the dead's "will" as they are beyond the cares and results that occur in this world on their behalf.....the Mormon's who work on behalf of the dead also have the best of intentions..
It defies the will of their families, as much as a Catholic baptizing a non-Catholic infant defies the will of that person's family. Both are wrong, both are usually well intentioned.

Forming ones conscience is the freedom for all people. One size does not fill all, and one should always be open to the promptings of the Hoy Spirit. I've been in heated discussions IRL, which usually occur by one person trying to force their will on the other, forgetting our freedom in God. It happens here too, by everyone, including myself.
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  #50  
Old Feb 20, '12, 12:20 pm
TexanKnight TexanKnight is offline
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

It all boils down to consent.

It is wrong for Catholics to do it for babies for families who have not consented and it wrong for Mormons to do it to those who have passed when families have not consented
  #51  
Old Feb 21, '12, 7:45 am
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KathleenGee KathleenGee is offline
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

Thanks for your elaboration, Publisher....yes I am aware of some sentiments...but that was the kind of talk you heard over 30 years ago...when there was this 'hypothesis' as I call it, about the place of 'limbo' that St. Thomas Aquinas pondered.

I never took to it...and the same with others. We would discuss such topics in Catholic grade school....ours included junior high age...but I remember such conversations...and we ended up wondering about the plight of the babies....and I thought the baby would follow the way of the parents if they were to baptize later on....

Or parents who didn't care....whose to say the child would seek its own baptism in the future? I finally came to the conclusion that the baby would end up in God's mercy.

Going back, that is where it is so difficult with non-Catholics....what is the spirit of the Church? It is really the Holy Spirit at work in the Church. It is not individual men proposing, no matter their saintliness and other works.

When a teacher speaks universally, and in the Holy Spirit, it not only resonates in the teacher....but in the pope, the bishops, the lay...and then we know the teaching or illumination of our beliefs are further deepened and understood.

Grace works through nature. There has been tremendous growth of understanding the human person through psychology and family sociology, the interdevelopment of cultures...I see non-native people working hand in hand with Africans in their land on human and economic development...

The grace of dialogue has emerged in this past former century on inter faith dialogue...and a normalizing of interfaith relations. This is the work of the Holy Spirit...the gift of unity.

So to baptize non-Christian babies, as did happen obviously, the person meant well in the context of how they understood their own faith at that time, and likewise there were others of the same rank and profession who did not baptize.

I served a short while in an Italian Catholic mission and they had me stand by assist at child birth. It was very common to lose a mother to hemorrhaging due to anemia. The child was cleaned, wrapped, and put in the arms of its father, we all very sad each time. But no infant baptism.

Professional Catholic missionaries do not rush into baptism. My father told me in the beginning, when there were explorations of the New World, the Church rushed in baptizing adults...and they never adequately converted and brought alot of scandal to the Church and those seeking truth of God. So no more rushed baptisms.
  #52  
Old Feb 21, '12, 8:23 am
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

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Originally Posted by KathleenGee View Post
Thanks for your elaboration, Publisher....yes I am aware of some sentiments...but that was the kind of talk you heard over 30 years ago...when there was this 'hypothesis' as I call it, about the place of 'limbo' that St. Thomas Aquinas pondered.

I never took to it...and the same with others. We would discuss such topics in Catholic grade school....ours included junior high age...but I remember such conversations...and we ended up wondering about the plight of the babies....and I thought the baby would follow the way of the parents if they were to baptize later on....

Or parents who didn't care....whose to say the child would seek its own baptism in the future? I finally came to the conclusion that the baby would end up in God's mercy.

Going back, that is where it is so difficult with non-Catholics....what is the spirit of the Church? It is really the Holy Spirit at work in the Church. It is not individual men proposing, no matter their saintliness and other works.

When a teacher speaks universally, and in the Holy Spirit, it not only resonates in the teacher....but in the pope, the bishops, the lay...and then we know the teaching or illumination of our beliefs are further deepened and understood.

Grace works through nature. There has been tremendous growth of understanding the human person through psychology and family sociology, the interdevelopment of cultures...I see non-native people working hand in hand with Africans in their land on human and economic development...

The grace of dialogue has emerged in this past former century on inter faith dialogue...and a normalizing of interfaith relations. This is the work of the Holy Spirit...the gift of unity.

So to baptize non-Christian babies, as did happen obviously, the person meant well in the context of how they understood their own faith at that time, and likewise there were others of the same rank and profession who did not baptize.

I served a short while in an Italian Catholic mission and they had me stand by assist at child birth. It was very common to lose a mother to hemorrhaging due to anemia. The child was cleaned, wrapped, and put in the arms of its father, we all very sad each time. But no infant baptism.

Professional Catholic missionaries do not rush into baptism. My father told me in the beginning, when there were explorations of the New World, the Church rushed in baptizing adults...and they never adequately converted and brought alot of scandal to the Church and those seeking truth of God. So no more rushed baptisms.
This wasn't 30 years ago when we had the discussion on this fourm...it was months ago....and while I understand the Catholic church does not condone baptizing children "secretly"....there are individual Catholics who feel they "know best" and would do so if given the opportunity...whether it was against "official" Catholic teaching or not....the same with LDS....some of the more zealous Mormons have conducted work for the dead they were not related to....done not out of malice but done with the best of intentions.

As has been stated here over and over....LDS work for the dead is supposed to be on behalf of LDS relatives....and the "work for the dead" has been abused.....but we find abuse in every faith tradition where rituals are seen as necessary for "salvation".

I just find the anger exhibited toward LDS for their work for the dead....I found it "interesting' in our discussion about baptizing children...babies....in mortal danger soon after birth....the "anger" and "outrage" shown toward the LDS for their work of the dead was absent.....I was told that if a Catholic would have baptized my child without my consent....I should see it as an act of love....even though I saw it as an act of betrayal....it was stated a baptized child became "Catholic" and it was a "good thing"....I disagree...it would have been a slap in the face and an unloving act to my wife and myself.....but....we disagree....performing rituals for the living unwanted is worse than performing rituals for the dead....but that's just me....others may have different ideas....
  #53  
Old Feb 21, '12, 1:20 pm
RebeccaJ RebeccaJ is offline
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

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performing rituals for the living unwanted is worse than performing rituals for the dead....but that's just me....others may have different ideas....
I agree with what you are saying, I'll only say, that from a Catholic perspective, we are a community. When we sin we sin against God and His Church. What is the Church, but the the body of Christ, and He is the head? As the Body of Christ, what one does effects all, what is done against one, is done against all. So for us, it doesn't matter that Mormons are baptizing relatives or not, it all comes down to the same thing: an affront to ALL the baptized, because it is an affront against our faith, whether it be the living or the dead.

We don't hold a view that the souls of the dead, who are judged to be with God in heaven, leave the Body of Christ. Sneaking in a baptism has the same connotations for us, whether the person is living or dead.
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  #54  
Old Feb 21, '12, 3:17 pm
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KathleenGee KathleenGee is offline
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

Hi Publisher....

If Catholic lay people are doing this baptizing of babies....they are not following the practice of the Church, and should be under the jurisdiction of their pastors.

Last night I was reading a post about past Catholic missionary priests not baptizing because the person had not gone through formal training. They were on their death bed and by the time the priest had got there, the person had passed on.

I never witnessed such baptisms in the missions when we had alot of mortality.

Because of American fundamentalism...and you can find it in all denominations...and the more in house Catholic word would be scrupulosity, I had discussed this very issue with my regional provencial when first entering the country, this about 1974...He told me of Africans who do good to other people, who share what they have....but they don't understand Christianity.

He asked me, 'Would you condemn such a person to hell?' I said 'no'.

I recall an African servant who mistakenly washed dollar bills with the rest of the owner's clothes. He hung all the clothes on the line, and included the bills to dry as well. Very honest....

That is why Vatican II speaks of people of good will also on the path of salvation. It is fuzzy because only God can judge, only God will open heaven for us.
  #55  
Old Feb 21, '12, 3:21 pm
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KathleenGee KathleenGee is offline
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

What I find incendiary of Mormon baptisms is first, what happened in the temples was secret for many years until lately when we found out what they were partially used for: baptism of the dead. This practice sets off alarms of all sorts regarding theology.

The second is that it is happening against the will of the person.

Third, and most so, is when consecrated and religious souls have been baptized in death...and this a great insult to the sacred calling and choice they made....John Paul II baptized 6 times...he is the pope who said these baptisms...whether living or dead....are not valid.

It is insulting. And it crosses boundaries of people's sensitivity...when I read phrases like 'a treasure trove going back 1,000 years of priests and religous were recently discovered...' and rather put out that the Vatican put a stop to it.

This is a major and Mormon authorized practice.

Baptism of infants in hospital without anyone's knowledge except the person doing it is not the practice of the Catholic Church.
  #56  
Old Feb 21, '12, 3:54 pm
TexanKnight TexanKnight is offline
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

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This wasn't 30 years ago when we had the discussion on this fourm...it was months ago....and while I understand the Catholic church does not condone baptizing children "secretly"....there are individual Catholics who feel they "know best" and would do so if given the opportunity...whether it was against "official" Catholic teaching or not....the same with LDS....some of the more zealous Mormons have conducted work for the dead they were not related to....done not out of malice but done with the best of intentions.

As has been stated here over and over....LDS work for the dead is supposed to be on behalf of LDS relatives....and the "work for the dead" has been abused.....but we find abuse in every faith tradition where rituals are seen as necessary for "salvation".

I just find the anger exhibited toward LDS for their work for the dead....I found it "interesting' in our discussion about baptizing children...babies....in mortal danger soon after birth....the "anger" and "outrage" shown toward the LDS for their work of the dead was absent.....I was told that if a Catholic would have baptized my child without my consent....I should see it as an act of love....even though I saw it as an act of betrayal....it was stated a baptized child became "Catholic" and it was a "good thing"....I disagree...it would have been a slap in the face and an unloving act to my wife and myself.....but....we disagree....performing rituals for the living unwanted is worse than performing rituals for the dead....but that's just me....others may have different ideas....
Two wrongs do not make a right. Any Catholic who does that is wrong. Any LDS who does it is wrong. Neither the infant or the deceased have the ability to consent. Dojng it to either without family consent is wrong.

But to say that Catholics secretly baptizing infants is as rampant and LDS baptizing the dead is simply not accurate. Where it might happen occasionally to an infant by a Catholic, it is epidemic in the LDS Church. So, the comparison is a little out of whack.

When I left the LDS Church, my son was 2.5 years and my daughter was 2 months. I was considered an unfilt father so some LDS tried to kidnap my children. The lack of consent to do temple work for the dead is just par for the course in the LDS Church.
  #57  
Old Feb 21, '12, 4:49 pm
CompSciGuy CompSciGuy is offline
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

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I don't think that it makes sense to ask the LDS Church to apologize or stop because they feel that what they are doing is a charitiable thing which allows someone to get to a higher heaven.

I also wouldn't waste time being upset about what they are doing because what they are doing is completely ineffectual.

The reality is that everyone on earth, while they are living, has an opportunity to accept God, enter His true Church and become saved via the Sacrament of Baptism and those who truly don't have that opportunity in life may still be saved via the abundant mercy of God who knows and judges correctly the hearts of men.

What the LDS Church is doing a huge waste of their own time and energy, but it has absolutely zero affect on anyone. But they won't stop unless...they individually come to the knowledge of and accept the truth.
I'm with this guy. There is no reason to be upset about what they are doing. It's not like they're actually going and digging up someone's remains and performing baptism on them, they are baptizing in some dead person's name. It's a personal thing between them and their own faith.
  #58  
Old Feb 21, '12, 5:44 pm
rdscheirer rdscheirer is offline
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

Hey if they want to "baptize" me again which is futile but pray for me which is beneficial I'll take it.
As I tell a Baptist friend -I ask the Saints for intervention just as I ask you to pray for me- what's the difference if neither the Saints intervention or my friend's prayer for me is heard -what does it matter- if both are heard its a boon to me- if only one or the other is heard- how would I know?
  #59  
Old Feb 21, '12, 6:01 pm
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Bran Stark Bran Stark is offline
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

I think that Mormons proxy-baptizing dead people is a silly waste of time, but I think that orthodox Christians complaining about said baptisms is an even sillier waste of time. Mormons hold weird beliefs, yes, but I don't see why we should get so hung up on this one particular aspect of them. It rather reminds me of the atheist "de-baptism" campaign going on right now. Atheists complaining about Catholic baptism and Catholics complaining about Mormon baptism are equally illogical, since neither group believes the baptism concerned has any effectual power.
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  #60  
Old Feb 22, '12, 6:32 am
chosen people chosen people is offline
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Default Re: Mormons Anger Jews by Baptism of the Dead, Apologize

There was a time when we Jews thought that any and all deceitful conversions of Jews (alive or dead) ended with the Finaly affair:
http://isurvived.org/2Postings/Finaly-affair.html
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