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  #16  
Old Feb 19, '12, 10:21 am
Marie5890 Marie5890 is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post

but faith is more than theology
I would disagree with that in terms of Mormonism. JMO.

Mormons can and do get divorced.

If they want to get re-married (and re-sealed, for they are not the same thing in their view) a woman must first get her "sealing" from her ex undone.

A man does not have to go thru this step. He can be sealed to many women, even if he is not married to them.

Not true for a woman.
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-- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Homily
  #17  
Old Feb 19, '12, 10:22 am
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SteveVH SteveVH is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
Without disagreeing, I'm trying to avoid the minefield of theological dispute to get to the more humanistic issues. Let's just say what I've heard of Mormon theology is less than convincing. But they do seem to be reasonably good people, in general.

Of course, faith is a reason and an explanation but faith is more than theology and I want first to understand what is being explained, to work from observable behavior back to theology instead of the other way around. And to see where it first diverges with Catholicism. (For example, if Mormons believed in divorce and remarriage then that would be an observable difference regardless of the theology that explains it.)

Does that make sense?
Yes it does. Thanks for the explanation.
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"Let the time come when those who should oblige the servant of God, do the contrary to him, and what degree of patience and humility he has then, that is the degree he has and no more." - St. Francis of Assisi
  #18  
Old Feb 19, '12, 10:29 am
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie5890 View Post
I would disagree with that in terms of Mormonism. JMO.

Mormons can and do get divorced.

If they want to get re-married (and re-sealed, for they are not the same thing in their view) a woman must first get her "sealing" from her ex undone.

A man does not have to go thru this step. He can be sealed to many women, even if he is not married to them.

Not true for a woman.
Yes, of course, I forgot about polygamy.

So what is the difference between sealing and marriage?

What is exaltation? How does polygamy relate to exaltation? Is exaltation something like salvation or enlightenment?
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  #19  
Old Feb 19, '12, 10:45 am
Marie5890 Marie5890 is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
Yes, of course, I forgot about polygamy.

So what is the difference between sealing and marriage?

What is exaltation? How does polygamy relate to exaltation? Is exaltation something like salvation or enlightenment?
Marriage for them is a civil and legal situation and ends in death. It is not eternal. It can happen outside the temple and does not need any priesthood authority.

Being "sealed for time and all eternity" can only happen in the temple and only by priesthood authority.

"exaltation" is where the couple, or the man with his multiple wives, has attained the highest level of the Celestial kingdom (there are three levels, and one has had to be baptized LDS, in in this life, or had their proxy temple work done, in order to get into the celestial kingdom in the first place) and become gods in their own right and will continue on with a spiritual procreation for their owns worlds.

You see in Mormon theology that is where we come from. We are literally the spirit children of Heavenly parents. Both a Heavenly Father AND a Heavenly Mother.

Where Christ comes into this is that He is the first born of all of these spirit children born of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. In that way, according to Mormon theology, He is literally our spiritual elder brother.

Again in this way, Lucifer is also literally a spirit child of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, making him not only a brother to Christ in this literal spiritual sense, but also a literaly spiritual brother of all of us.

That is why you cant separate Mormon theology from their faith. It really is all about family, family ties, and linage. It's why, for them, genealogy work and their temples are paramount in their faith.

It's the only way to save all these spirit children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother.
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-- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Homily
  #20  
Old Feb 19, '12, 10:50 am
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Janderich View Post
I have found it interesting on this site that so much discussion focuses on rarely talked about teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. This I believe gives a skewed view of what we focus on and how we see the world.
Let's break from LDS for a moment and look at a secularist who has a deeply held conviction regarding religion. This secularist believes that religion (Catholicism, LDS, Islam, Judaism, Confucianism, Deism, everyone) is responsible for every single war in human history and that world peace will only be achieved if religion is eliminated. This mindset is frighteningly common in the world today.

Let's say a Southern Baptist strikes up a conversation with this secularist regarding, say, disease in Africa. The secularist and the Baptist agree that there is too much poverty and disease in Africa and that as well-to-do Westerners, all of us have an obligation to do what we can to help. The Baptist tells the secularist that his Baptist church is sending a mission to Africa to help teach work skills to poor people. Then the secularist winces, realizing he's talking to a Christian, and a missionary one at that.

As it turns out, the Baptist and the secularist have superficially similar goals for solving this problem. However, their motivations are completely different. The Baptist is concerned with the well-being of each poor African and wants to give them all a chance to have a decent education. The secularist wants to reduce the birth rate by shipping condoms and contraception to Africa, essentially concentrating wealth by eliminating the poorest of the poor before they are even conceived.

The difference is entirely a matter of belief. The secularist's belief regarding religion has him painting the Baptists (and the Catholics) as unnecessarily generating poverty by asserting that the poor have a right to exist. Because he does not believe there is a right to existence, his actions necessarily follow.

Here, precisely because of its dogma about the pre-mortal existence, the LDS church is on the side of the secularist. In the LDS view, contraception is permissible because no one is deprived of the right to exist on account of contraception because everyone already exists.

So, these "rarely talked about teachings" of the LDS (or any other religion or belief system) are absolutely vital. It is usually these beliefs that define us at the core of who we are. My belief in God as the ETERNAL Father (and not simply "Heavenly," i.e. one of many men who supposedly became a god) is central to my belief in the inalienable right to exist, and that right in turn is central to my belief in democracy. As I have explained earlier, if the One who gave those rights to us is not eternal and supreme, but is rather just one god among many, the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not truly inalienable.

History bears this out: back when Europe was composed of absolute monarchies, one king would routinely revoke the rights of the subjects of another king. That kind of foolishness lead to war upon war and is the reason why the United States of America declared her independence--on the basis of a transcendent creator God having given to men the inalienable rights I have just described. That belief is rejected by Mormons.

What you believe matters.

Last edited by Cat Herder; Feb 19, '12 at 11:00 am.
  #21  
Old Feb 19, '12, 10:57 am
Marie5890 Marie5890 is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post


So, these "rarely talked about teachings" of the LDS (or any other religion or belief system) are absolutely vital. It is usually these beliefs that define us at the core of who we are. My belief in God as the ETERNAL Father (and not simply "Heavenly") is central to my belief in the inalienable right to exist, and that right in turn is central to my belief in democracy. As I have explained earlier, if the One who gave those rights to us is not eternal and supreme, but is rather just one god among many, the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not truly inalienable.



What you believe matters.
Exactly and very well put.

I can only speak to Mormonism since I know it well.
You cannot separate it's theology from it's faith.

The "why" they do things is because of the "what" they believe
__________________
"Love without truth would be blind; truth without love would be like 'a clanging cymbal' (I Cor 13: 1)."
-- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Homily
  #22  
Old Feb 19, '12, 10:58 am
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie5890 View Post
Marriage for them is a civil and legal situation and ends in death. It is not eternal. It can happen outside the temple and does not need any priesthood authority.

Being "sealed for time and all eternity" can only happen in the temple and only by priesthood authority.
So, yeah, I would be more interested in Morman "sealing" than their views on civil marriage.

But from what you said previously, a woman can be "unsealed". (You said men don't need to be and that makes sense under polygamy.) So it's not really sealed for time and eternity. Is unsealing uncommon?

Quote:
"exaltation" is where the couple, or the man with his multiple wives, has attained the highest level of the Celestial kingdom (there are three levels, and one has had to be baptized LDS, in in this life, or had their proxy temple work done, in order to get into the celestial kingdom in the first place) and become gods in their own right and will continue on with a spiritual procreation for their owns worlds.
So this is the ultimate goal, but how does it compare with other similar concepts such as Christian salvation?

Quote:
You see in Mormon theology that is where we come from...
I understand but I'm trying to approach the theology from the humanism side.

You have been very helpful, would you care to take a stab at my other question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
How does the couple relate to the family and how does the family relate to the "government of God"?
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  #23  
Old Feb 19, '12, 11:03 am
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post
Let's break from LDS for a moment and look at a secularist who has a deeply held conviction regarding religion. This secularist believes that religion (Catholicism, LDS, Islam, Judaism, Confucianism, Deism, everyone) is responsible for every single war in human history and that world peace will only be achieved if religion is eliminated. This mindset is frighteningly common in the world today.

Let's say a Southern Baptist strikes up a conversation with this secularist regarding, say, disease in Africa. The secularist and the Baptist agree that there is too much poverty and disease in Africa and that as well-to-do Westerners, all of us have an obligation to do what we can to help. The Baptist tells the secularist that his Baptist church is sending a mission to Africa to help teach work skills to poor people. Then the secularist winces, realizing he's talking to a Christian, and a missionary one at that.

As it turns out, the Baptist and the secularist have superficially similar goals for solving this problem. However, their motivations are completely different. The Baptist is concerned with the well-being of each poor African and wants to give them all a chance to have a decent education. The secularist wants to reduce the birth rate by shipping condoms and contraception to Africa, essentially concentrating wealth by eliminating the poorest of the poor before they are even conceived.

The difference is entirely a matter of belief. The secularist's belief regarding religion has him painting the Baptists (and the Catholics) as unnecessarily generating poverty by asserting that the poor have a right to exist. Because he does not believe there is a right to existence, his actions necessarily follow.

Here, precisely because of its dogma about the pre-mortal existence, the LDS church is on the side of the secularist. In the LDS view, contraception is permissible because no one is deprived of the right to exist on account of contraception because everyone already exists.

So, these "rarely talked about teachings" of the LDS (or any other religion or belief system) are absolutely vital. It is usually these beliefs that define us at the core of who we are. My belief in God as the ETERNAL Father (and not simply "Heavenly") is central to my belief in the inalienable right to exist, and that right in turn is central to my belief in democracy. As I have explained earlier, if the One who gave those rights to us is not eternal and supreme, but is rather just one god among many, the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not truly inalienable.

History bears this out: back when Europe was composed of absolute monarchies, one king would routinely revoke the rights of the subjects of another king. That kind of foolishness lead to war upon war and is the reason why the United States of America declared her independence--on the basis of a transcendent creator God having given to men the inalienable rights I have just described. That belief is rejected by Mormons.

What you believe matters.
Right, and well put, but I want to approach the belief from the matters side.

Two people might make the same choice for different theological reasons. But even your "superficial" similarity illustrates observable differences between the secularist and the Baptist. We can distinguish them by their proposed solutions. (And then we can pursue the question of why they arrived at different solutions.)
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"Can anything good come from Nazareth?"
  #24  
Old Feb 19, '12, 11:13 am
Marie5890 Marie5890 is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
So, yeah, I would be more interested in Morman "sealing" than their views on civil marriage.

But from what you said previously, a woman can be "unsealed". (You said men don't need to be and that makes sense under polygamy.) So it's not really sealed for time and eternity. Is unsealing uncommon?


So this is the ultimate goal, but how does it compare with other similar concepts such as Christian salvation?


I understand but I'm trying to approach the theology from the humanism side.

You have been very helpful, would you care to take a stab at my other question:
A woman who has been married for "time and all eternity" who ends up getting divorced need to send her unsealing request to the 1st Presidency (I believe she has to go that high, but I am not sure)

To my knowledge, they are quite common and never really denied. Mormon divorces are pretty close to the national norm is my understanding. It's not that there is something "wrong" with getting a sealing unsealed, it's just that it has to be done at the hightest level.

It's not the more rigorous process of annulment. It's more of just getting it done.

Christian salvation vs Mormon exaltation? Mmmm I would say it has less to do with being in the presence of God for all eternity (although that is true for Mormonism and the celestial kingdom), and more to do with the continuation of the family unit. Remember, for them Heavenly Father (and Mother) are exalted beings. So I would say being "saved" is to be "exalted".

AFA how does the couple related to the family and the family relate to the "government of God" question, the best way to think about it is simply one big eternal family.

In other words, eternal procreation. Not only is there Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother(s) but also Heavenly Grandfather and Grandmother(s) and Heavenly great-grandfather and great-grandmother(s)

This stretches back thru eternity and forward....
__________________
"Love without truth would be blind; truth without love would be like 'a clanging cymbal' (I Cor 13: 1)."
-- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Homily
  #25  
Old Feb 19, '12, 11:16 am
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie5890 View Post
A woman who has been married for "time and all eternity" who ends up getting divorced need to send her unsealing request to the 1st Presidency (I believe she has to go that high, but I am not sure)

To my knowledge, they are quite common and never really denied. Mormon divorces are pretty close to the national norm is my understanding. It's not that there is something "wrong" with getting a sealing unsealed, it's just that it has to be done at the hightest level.

It's not the more rigorous process of annulment. It's more of just getting it done.

Christian salvation vs Mormon exaltation? Mmmm I would say it has less to do with being in the presence of God for all eternity (although that is true for Mormonism and the celestial kingdom), and more to do with the continuation of the family unit. Remember, for them Heavenly Father (and Mother) are exalted beings. So I would say being "saved" is to be "exalted".

AFA how does the couple related to the family and the family relate to the "government of God" question, the best way to think about it is simply one big eternal family.

In other words, eternal procreation. Not only is there Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother(s) but also Heavenly Grandfather and Grandmother(s) and Heavenly great-grandfather and great-grandmother(s)

This stretches back thru eternity and forward....
Thank you, this has been very helpful and I think you've answered the core question of the Mormon "worldview" at the level I was trying to understand it. Now I better understand the Mormon concept to family (and how it relates to their theological views).
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  #26  
Old Feb 19, '12, 11:27 am
Marie5890 Marie5890 is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Switzler View Post
Thank you, this has been very helpful and I think you've answered the core question of the Mormon "worldview" at the level I was trying to understand it. Now I better understand the Mormon concept to family (and how it relates to their theological views).
You are more than welcome.
__________________
"Love without truth would be blind; truth without love would be like 'a clanging cymbal' (I Cor 13: 1)."
-- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Homily
  #27  
Old Feb 19, '12, 12:16 pm
Janderich Janderich is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marie5890 View Post
A woman who has been married for "time and all eternity" who ends up getting divorced need to send her unsealing request to the 1st Presidency (I believe she has to go that high, but I am not sure)

To my knowledge, they are quite common and never really denied. Mormon divorces are pretty close to the national norm is my understanding. It's not that there is something "wrong" with getting a sealing unsealed, it's just that it has to be done at the hightest level.

It's not the more rigorous process of annulment. It's more of just getting it done.
A few corrections here... The divorce rate for LDS couples sealed in the temple is around 6%, much lower then the national average.

It is actually rather difficult to get a sealing cancellation.
  #28  
Old Feb 19, '12, 12:27 pm
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Miriam1947 Miriam1947 is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat Herder View Post

Here, precisely because of its dogma about the pre-mortal existence, the LDS church is on the side of the secularist. In the LDS view, contraception is permissible because no one is deprived of the right to exist on account of contraception because everyone already exists.

So, these "rarely talked about teachings" of the LDS (or any other religion or belief system) are absolutely vital. It is usually these beliefs that define us at the core of who we are. My belief in God as the ETERNAL Father (and not simply "Heavenly," i.e. one of many men who supposedly became a god) is central to my belief in the inalienable right to exist, and that right in turn is central to my belief in democracy. As I have explained earlier, if the One who gave those rights to us is not eternal and supreme, but is rather just one god among many, the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not truly inalienable.



What you believe matters.
Great post!
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  #29  
Old Feb 19, '12, 12:34 pm
Marie5890 Marie5890 is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_divo.htm

How objective and unbiased this is
i dont know....
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-- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Homily
  #30  
Old Feb 19, '12, 1:22 pm
Bubba Switzler Bubba Switzler is offline
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Default Re: Mormon Worldview

Well, I thought I was done with this subject but I came across this article in the WSJ:

Quote:
Ever since Mitt Romney said he was "not concerned about the very poor" but would fix America's social safety net "if it needs repair," conservatives and liberals have been frantically making suggestions. Gov. Romney says he would consider options like restructuring Medicaid. But if he wants to see a welfare system that lets almost no one fall through the cracks while at the same time ensuring that its beneficiaries don't become lifelong dependents, he could look to his own church.

As I ride in a golf cart through a new 15-acre warehouse on the outskirts of Utah's capital, I can't help but wonder: How many Wal-Marts would fit in here? How many burgers can you make from 4,400 industrial pallets of frozen meat? And how do they keep this place cleaner than my kitchen floor?

Dedicated last month, the Bishops Central Storehouse contains a two-year supply of food to support the Mormon church's welfare system in the U.S. and Canada (primarily for church members in need) and its humanitarian program, which sends food, medical supplies and other necessities to the needy (of all faiths) world-wide.

In addition to goods from canned peaches to emergency generators, the facility also houses the church's own trucking company, complete with 43 tractors and 98 trailers, as well as a one-year supply of fuel, parts and tires for the vehicles. Just in case.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...888056682.html

The impression one gets from this article, at least, is that the Mormons have created their own welfare and emergency response system, all on the foundation of Mormon tithing. Pretty impressive.

And while Catholic charities are quite active, they seem much more inclined to partnering with the state for funding than to rely on donations.

If this picture is accurate, it's a pretty big difference.
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