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  #76  
Old Feb 22, '12, 10:41 am
LilHomemaker LilHomemaker is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by Daralharb View Post
When a family has children, especially those not of school age, daycare becomes so costly that the woman basically works to put the kid(s) in day care to work to put the kids in daycare. Obviously salary plays into this, as does the cost of daycare.

She then has all the stress of dad when they both get home. House still needs to be cleaned, dinner cooked, etc.

Family w/o kids, sure, work away! Earn extra money! Pay off the house quicker! Pay off the car quicker! Go on those vacations which are impossible with kids (pina colada on a tropical pacific beach while junior runs around? Hardly relaxing or romantic).

Mom was a bank manager. Made good money. Decided she didn't like seeing her kid only a few hours a day. Family life improved much when she quit working. Dad became sole dough winner, and mom became sole bread cooker. I found it hard to get away with things after school when mom, only girl from 5 and the middle child, was there to head me off. (Bo knows baseball, MOM KNOWS us deviant minds known as adolescent boys)

The historical use of women in the workforce goes back to the Industrial Revolution and the ease of domestic life in comparison, the transition from trades to factory work, the movements of the population of men away to work, etc.

In the South, the emergence of a true Middle Class of socio-economic considerations brought about the " new rich" mentality still pervasive in today's middle class. A richness only had through sound financial planning and investment, or, faux-wealth in debt.

From a paper I wrote for a history class on the census data of 1860 (US)



Being a true wife is a full time job without the addition of extra stress.

If a couple NEEDS that money to even live as a couple, did they not pre-calculate a budget prior to marriage? Did they not factor in a kid or 6?

There was a time when a man didn't marry until he could provide for a wife and kids on his own. This was a learning process and established the man as a head of the family, as he worked for the family before having the family.

The real communist element isn't in sound extraction of common sense, it's in convincing a segment of the population they need to throw off yokes which aren't yokes, for chains which are locked.

Communists love a working mother. It generates the exact conditions we see now. Feminism is as dangerous as machismo, but that's not politically correct to really say despite its truth. Once feminism takes hold, society goes eventually. Why do you think feminist ideologies, homosexuality, etc are being pushed so hard right now?

Can't take over a society which is morally intact.
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"O unfathomable depth! O Deity eternal! O deep ocean! What more could You give me than to give me Yourself?" St. Catherine of Siena

It will be she (Mary) who makes the soul live incessantly for Jesus Christ, and will make Jesus live in the soul” St. Louis de Montfort
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  #77  
Old Feb 22, '12, 11:30 am
LucyLight LucyLight is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by manualman View Post
Lucy I see your point, but it has practical problems in the real world. Technically, I'm "pro-choice" because I DO believe women have the inherent right to make their own decisions on how to live and what to do with their bodies - right up until and NOT across the line in which those choices violate someone else's more fundamental rights.

But as a practical matter, I cannot describe myself as "pro-choice" in public because the term has been co-opted into a euphenism for "pro-abortion." I fear the same thing applies to the word "feminist." You are right about the proper definition! Technically Gloria Steinem and Betty Freiden shouldn't be described as "feminists." It would be more accurate to call them "masculinists." But that ship has sailed and I'm afraid it is tilting at windmills to try to reclaim the term.
I don't think that the term feminist is as negative as the term prochoice. However, it certainly is in these forums and it may be your experience. I have heard the term feminist used by both conservative and liberal women to describe themselves. For example the conservative group Concerned Women for America describes itself as a feminist organization but makes the distinction between itself and what it calls "radical feminists". Even Rush Limbaugh uses the term "feminazis" but doesn't say feminists.

As Catholics we are called to evangelize and when you start blaming problems on feminists it turns a lot of women off. You don't want to sound like you are aqainst women having equal rights or that that movement wasn't neccessary. I think that making a distinction by using the term radical feminists, or liberal feminists is more accurate and effective.
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  #78  
Old Feb 22, '12, 11:45 am
Debora123 Debora123 is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by LucyLight View Post

As Catholics we are called to evangelize and when you start blaming problems on feminists it turns a lot of women off. You don't want to sound like you are aqainst women having equal rights or that that movement wasn't neccessary. I think that making a distinction by using the term radical feminists, or liberal feminists is more accurate and effective.
Yes!!
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  #79  
Old Feb 22, '12, 11:57 am
LilHomemaker LilHomemaker is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

I kind of skimmed throught the posts and couldn't find the answer to where the USCCB have a stand on women working or not working.

I certainly don't feel the OP question is socialist or communist at all. I have heard several talks on communism and most have pointed out that part of the communist ideal was to get the women out of the house and working, thus to help break down families. It is funny how today's modernism has ideas twisted.

There are women out there that do have to work. They do need the money. One poster stated that families that stay at home are priviliedged. This is so not true. I have known many women who have chosen to stay at home and thus give up many material posessions just to be there for their children. As you can tell by my name I am a homemaker. I only work every once in a while at a doctors office when they call asking for help to fill in. This not very often and that is how I want it. I need to pick up these few days so we can pay for my son's education. I am not home most of every day because we are priviliged because we are not. One of my son's best friend's mom is a stay at home mom and they live in a very, very small house. Believe me they are not priviledged, except to have the privilidge of having their mom with them.

I understand some women have to work, that happens and there are women who can afford to stay at home. It is out there but today so many women choose to work. Having to work to pay for necessities and having to work to pay for material posessions are two different things. My mother had to work to help my dad and it was very hard for her and us not having her there. When she was there it was great. I have known other women members in my family who work and it is very hard for them and their family. For the most part, the ones that are struggling and having a hard time where both work are the husbands, the children also, but the husbands are exhausted but yet come home to housework and grocery shopping and laundry and cooking dinner.

My grandmother worked side by side my grandfather on their tenant farm and she worked hard but most of her work was inside their rented home, caring for 7 little children. With 7 children you are not out in the fields too much and when family looks back and remember her, they say, "she was always there for them.

Again, there are those that have to work and those that choose to work.

The traditional family is not communist at all. There is nothing communist about a woman coming home to care for her family and thus a job opening up for man to go to work and support his.
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"O unfathomable depth! O Deity eternal! O deep ocean! What more could You give me than to give me Yourself?" St. Catherine of Siena

It will be she (Mary) who makes the soul live incessantly for Jesus Christ, and will make Jesus live in the soul” St. Louis de Montfort
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  #80  
Old Feb 22, '12, 3:50 pm
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by Allegra View Post
...Nearly all our kids have two parents working, and if not, it's because someone got laid off. We have over three-hundred students. Do you know how many get on the Kindercare bus? Five. And latchkey gets between twelve and sixteen, depending on the day. All the rest are picked up by or get sent home to parents or responsible family members.
You make a good point differentiating between pre-school age kids and school kids. My reference to my wife's vehemence is to the former. She worked in the 2 year old room.

I'm unclear on how you know that only 12-16 kids go home after school and let themselves into an empty house. I'll tell you one thing that I DO know that happens from personal observation. The "stew-stirrers" (your term) often are begged to drive home the kids of the two parent families.
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  #81  
Old Feb 22, '12, 4:01 pm
FaithBuild18 FaithBuild18 is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by LilHomemaker View Post
I kind of skimmed throught the posts and couldn't find the answer to where the USCCB have a stand on women working or not working.

I certainly don't feel the OP question is socialist or communist at all. I have heard several talks on communism and most have pointed out that part of the communist ideal was to get the women out of the house and working, thus to help break down families. It is funny how today's modernism has ideas twisted.

There are women out there that do have to work. They do need the money. One poster stated that families that stay at home are priviliedged. This is so not true. I have known many women who have chosen to stay at home and thus give up many material posessions just to be there for their children. As you can tell by my name I am a homemaker. I only work every once in a while at a doctors office when they call asking for help to fill in. This not very often and that is how I want it. I need to pick up these few days so we can pay for my son's education. I am not home most of every day because we are priviliged because we are not. One of my son's best friend's mom is a stay at home mom and they live in a very, very small house. Believe me they are not priviledged, except to have the privilidge of having their mom with them.

I understand some women have to work, that happens and there are women who can afford to stay at home. It is out there but today so many women choose to work. Having to work to pay for necessities and having to work to pay for material posessions are two different things. My mother had to work to help my dad and it was very hard for her and us not having her there. When she was there it was great. I have known other women members in my family who work and it is very hard for them and their family. For the most part, the ones that are struggling and having a hard time where both work are the husbands, the children also, but the husbands are exhausted but yet come home to housework and grocery shopping and laundry and cooking dinner.

My grandmother worked side by side my grandfather on their tenant farm and she worked hard but most of her work was inside their rented home, caring for 7 little children. With 7 children you are not out in the fields too much and when family looks back and remember her, they say, "she was always there for them.

Again, there are those that have to work and those that choose to work.

The traditional family is not communist at all. There is nothing communist about a woman coming home to care for her family and thus a job opening up for man to go to work and support his.
Thank you. Thank you thank you so much. Thank you for understanding what I was asking and not jumping on me like others have. And thank you for your wonderful response, I agree with everything you've said and it represents the true intentions of my asking.
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  #82  
Old Feb 22, '12, 4:38 pm
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Allegra Allegra is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by manualman View Post
You make a good point differentiating between pre-school age kids and school kids. My reference to my wife's vehemence is to the former. She worked in the 2 year old room.

I'm unclear on how you know that only 12-16 kids go home after school and let themselves into an empty house. I'll tell you one thing that I DO know that happens from personal observation. The "stew-stirrers" (your term) often are begged to drive home the kids of the two parent families.
You misunderstand. Latchkey isn't going home to an empty house. It's the name of the after-hour care program that is run by the YMCA. None of our kids got home to an empty house. I work at an elementary school and if there isn't someone there that is over the age of 13, the bus brings them back to the school. It is illegal in our locality for children under the age of 10 to be left home alone.
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  #83  
Old Feb 24, '12, 3:53 pm
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

Forgive me, but do you really believe that? You are telling me that the bus driver stops at the house of each and every student and verifies that an adult opens the door for the kid before leaving. I don't buy it for a second.

It sure ain't that way around here! There are two bus stops in our entire subdivision. Bus stops, kids get out, bus driver leaves. No way he knows what happens after that.
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  #84  
Old Feb 24, '12, 7:13 pm
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Allegra Allegra is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by manualman View Post
Forgive me, but do you really believe that? You are telling me that the bus driver stops at the house of each and every student and verifies that an adult opens the door for the kid before leaving. I don't buy it for a second.

It sure ain't that way around here! There are two bus stops in our entire subdivision. Bus stops, kids get out, bus driver leaves. No way he knows what happens after that.
Yes. That is what they do until the 5th grade. The bus pulls up to some houses. If there are several children in the same block, the adult or older sibling has to fetch them from the corner. Some parents arrange with the driver for a neighbor to be responsible for their child, but they all have to have an adult come to get them or the bus brings them back to school. You can bet I believe it! I've sat with them in the office while the secretary calls their mom and dad.
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  #85  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:32 pm
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Luna Lovecraft Luna Lovecraft is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by LilHomemaker View Post
The traditional family is not communist at all. There is nothing communist about a woman coming home to care for her family and thus a job opening up for man to go to work and support his.
This isn't how our world works, though. If I quit my job Monday morning to stay home, more than likely my position would be filled by another woman. There just are more women with the qualifications to do my job than there are men.

Who gets today's jobs is determined by education, qualifications, and skill sets. Except for some very few exceptions, gender just doesn't play into it anymore. The world has moved on. Thankfully.

And besides, in the US at least, it's illegal to use gender as a determining factor for employment.

Again, as I said in my previous post, when an adult doesn't have a job so she can provide for her family, the solution is not to force/encourage/support someone else giving up his job. Workers are not interchangable cogs. The solution is to train people so they can compete for existing jobs that are out there.

Luna
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  #86  
Old Feb 25, '12, 7:09 am
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Allegra Allegra is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by Luna Lovecraft View Post
This isn't how our world works, though. If I quit my job Monday morning to stay home, more than likely my position would be filled by another woman. There just are more women with the qualifications to do my job than there are men.

Who gets today's jobs is determined by education, qualifications, and skill sets. Except for some very few exceptions, gender just doesn't play into it anymore. The world has moved on. Thankfully.

And besides, in the US at least, it's illegal to use gender as a determining factor for employment.

Again, as I said in my previous post, when an adult doesn't have a job so she can provide for her family, the solution is not to force/encourage/support someone else giving up his job. Workers are not interchangable cogs. The solution is to train people so they can compete for existing jobs that are out there.

Luna
I don't think that most the people on this forum are advocating for it to be illegal for women to work. I think they feel that women have some sort of moral obligation to choose not to work.
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  #87  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:05 am
LilHomemaker LilHomemaker is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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I don't think that most the people on this forum are advocating for it to be illegal for women to work. I think they feel that women have some sort of moral obligation to choose not to work.
Not a moral obligation to choose not to work but to choose family first. Many women today choose career first, family second. It is very hard to burn the candle at both end. I, also, think alot of women are realizing this, giving up material possessions and returning home and finding it a great fulfillment not a drudgery as they were told it was.
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"O unfathomable depth! O Deity eternal! O deep ocean! What more could You give me than to give me Yourself?" St. Catherine of Siena

It will be she (Mary) who makes the soul live incessantly for Jesus Christ, and will make Jesus live in the soul” St. Louis de Montfort
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  #88  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:24 am
LilHomemaker LilHomemaker is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by Luna Lovecraft View Post
This isn't how our world works, though. If I quit my job Monday morning to stay home, more than likely my position would be filled by another woman. There just are more women with the qualifications to do my job than there are men.

Who gets today's jobs is determined by education, qualifications, and skill sets. Except for some very few exceptions, gender just doesn't play into it anymore. The world has moved on. Thankfully.

And besides, in the US at least, it's illegal to use gender as a determining factor for employment.

Again, as I said in my previous post, when an adult doesn't have a job so she can provide for her family, the solution is not to force/encourage/support someone else giving up his job. Workers are not interchangable cogs. The solution is to train people so they can compete for existing jobs that are out there.

Luna
I understand all that you are saying. My post was in reference to those commenting that women returning home being communist. . As I said many women have to work but some choose to work. There is a big difference.
I don't feel anyone should be forced to come home but again it is not communist for women to be home or encouraged to be home and care for the family and men to work and provide for the family. As one makes a change in choices it causes change in another direction.

Also, just because the world moves on and things change doesn't mean those changes are right. There are always consequences to our actions. Approved by society or not.
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"O unfathomable depth! O Deity eternal! O deep ocean! What more could You give me than to give me Yourself?" St. Catherine of Siena

It will be she (Mary) who makes the soul live incessantly for Jesus Christ, and will make Jesus live in the soul” St. Louis de Montfort
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  #89  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:58 am
LisaA LisaA is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by LilHomemaker View Post
I understand all that you are saying. My post was in reference to those commenting that women returning home being communist. . As I said many women have to work but some choose to work. There is a big difference.
I don't feel anyone should be forced to come home but again it is not communist for women to be home or encouraged to be home and care for the family and men to work and provide for the family. As one makes a change in choices it causes change in another direction.

Also, just because the world moves on and things change doesn't mean those changes are right. There are always consequences to our actions. Approved by society or not.
I would second this and point out that society has swung in almost the opposite direction and women are 'encouraged' to work and IMO made to feel guilty or as if they are wasting their talents/education by staying home to focus on their family.

My perspective is from being the child of a working mom in the day when it was very very rare. When I was growing up virtually the ONLY working moms were either widows or divorcees who certainly had to work due to the loss of a breadwinner. I remember the not so subtle comments about my mother's choice to work. She was well educated and focused on career before that attitude was in style.

I think we've now overreacted to what was probably a limiting and somewhat demeaning attitude toward women's options (how could they be doctors or attorneys or architects) and women are expected to have a career in addition to raising their families. Particularly women who have college degrees, particularly postgraduate, feel the pressure to work and do something 'important' as if raising children well were not the most important task any human being could perform.

"Women's Lib" which is probably an antiquated term, demeaned women who made a choice other than a career path. I also think young men raised in the subsequent generation are much more likely to think and pressure their wives to work. I saw a survey of what each sex valued in a potential mate circa 1950 various times in between to the present day. In the 1950s a woman looked to a man's breadwinning potential and a man looked for a woman who would be a good mother and homemaker. Even in the 1960s this didn't change too much but as time went on more and more women simply wanted a 'good companion" "sense of humor" etc and more men wanted a woman who could contribute financially to the family's upward mobility.

As noted above, sometimes change isn't positive and the high divorce rate, increase in never wed mothers and deadbeat dads may well be what we reaped by sowing the seeds of discontent with respect to a traditional family structure.

Lisa
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  #90  
Old Feb 25, '12, 10:36 am
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Allegra Allegra is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Not a moral obligation to choose not to work but to choose family first. Many women today choose career first, family second. It is very hard to burn the candle at both end. I, also, think alot of women are realizing this, giving up material possessions and returning home and finding it a great fulfillment not a drudgery as they were told it was.
Drudgery? Taking care of one's own home and children is drudgery? I call it "life" and it get's done whether a woman has a job or not. A day where one gets to spend all day cleaning their house and spending time with their kids is called a "day off". If their husband happens to be present as well it's called a "vacation".

I agree that most middle class woman choose career first chronologically. It makes sense to do so. I would encourage any girl to get her education and a job before getting married and starting a family. However, most women that choose to have a family generally put that family first, speaking priority wise. This may or may not include maintaining a career. It may be hard to burn the candle at both ends, as you say but that's also life. Sometimes balancing the different facets of life can be challenging and some women are built with stronger constitutions than others. I would argue that if a woman OR a man is causing too much stress on their family, they need to make some sort of changes so they can be available. After all, what is the point of working in the first place is your family isn't well? I get a great deal of enjoyment and fullfillment from my job, but when it comes down to it, I work to live, not live to work, and family comes first.
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