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  #91  
Old Feb 25, '12, 10:57 am
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Luna Lovecraft Luna Lovecraft is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by LilHomemaker View Post
There is a big difference. I don't feel anyone should be forced to come home but again it is not communist for women to be home or encouraged to be home and care for the family and men to work and provide for the family. As one makes a change in choices it causes change in another direction.
I agree, but I wish gender weren't part of the conversation. There are women who earn more and provide their families with better benefits. In such a situation, if the couple decides that it's better for their family for one parent to be home with the children, there's nothing wrong with the man staying home.

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Originally Posted by LilHomemaker View Post
Also, just because the world moves on and things change doesn't mean those changes are right. There are always consequences to our actions. Approved by society or not.
Obviously. But if we want to remain relevant in today's world, we do have to acknowledge that the world isn't what it we think it was in the 1950s or in upper class Victorian society. Women are educated and have skill sets that allow them to provide economically for their families. If we poo-poo that or pass judgement on working women we're marginalizing ourselves and our influence on society. And I think the USCCB understands this with its position in favor of equal employment opportunities.

Luna
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  #92  
Old Feb 25, '12, 11:16 am
TheRealJuliane TheRealJuliane is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

Coming into this discussion very late to say that from my POV, having gone through the "feminist" era myself, women were sold a bill of goods in the deal. We were told that we had a right to equal work, equal pay, that sex should be without consequence (and therefore, without meaning), that children and family were less important than our individual self-esteem and self-realization (always in a career).

Now look at where we are, 30 years later. Women have grown up with nothing other than the knowledge that they are expected to work, not only to work, mind you, but to find a CAREER that gives them satisfaction and monetary reward. Women who dare to express the desire to marry and raise their own children are scoffed at, mocked, derided, ignored. With 3 generations of working women in the can, what have we gained?

Our children are warehoused so we can go to those careers. When we reclaim our babies at the end of the day, we are already tired and impatient with them because we have spent the entire day in the company of other adults. Then we go home, to fulfill the other side of our duties, since the home is still considered mainly to be the purview of women, regardless of whether or not she has an outside job. The children spend their early and most formative years in the company of other orphans, with total strangers, even if those strangers are quite loving. They are not mother.

For this reason, and many others (contraception and its fallout), it is my considered opinion that the "feminist" movement or whatever name you wish to call it, has HARMED the lot of women more than "liberated" them. We are now expected to work outside the home, to enjoy our work, to be ambitious in that career, and yet, someone still has to do the lion's share of childcare and home care once both working parents return. And most of us WANT to be there for our children, we still have the nurturing instinct that God built into us. So it's not even as though we can just split the duties with our husbands and all is well.

There were many agendas at play during the 1960's and 1970's. It's naive and simple to make that time into some kind of ideal "liberation" for women when there was more to the movements than met the eye.
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  #93  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:35 pm
LilHomemaker LilHomemaker is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Drudgery? Taking care of one's own home and children is drudgery? I call it "life" and it get's done whether a woman has a job or not. A day where one gets to spend all day cleaning their house and spending time with their kids is called a "day off". If their husband happens to be present as well it's called a "vacation".

I agree that most middle class woman choose career first chronologically. It makes sense to do so. I would encourage any girl to get her education and a job before getting married and starting a family. However, most women that choose to have a family generally put that family first, speaking priority wise. This may or may not include maintaining a career. It may be hard to burn the candle at both ends, as you say but that's also life. Sometimes balancing the different facets of life can be challenging and some women are built with stronger constitutions than others. I would argue that if a woman OR a man is causing too much stress on their family, they need to make some sort of changes so they can be available. After all, what is the point of working in the first place is your family isn't well? I get a great deal of enjoyment and fullfillment from my job, but when it comes down to it, I work to live, not live to work, and family comes first.
I am not saying I think caring for one's family is a drudgery, that is what our culture tells women that it is. It can be one of the most put down and teased jobs but in reality it is one of a woman's highest calling.

I, also agree, young girls should get an education. I did. My father always encouraged that. Training in caring for one's home should be part of her education, too. That seems to be lost.

I am not putting down any woman who works or has to work. I just hate to see women choose career, further education and climbing the ladder over family. And as I previous noted I am a part time nurse and I have to take questioning and teasing when saying no to my boss and coworkers so I can say yes to family and home.
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  #94  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:35 pm
FaithBuild18 FaithBuild18 is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane View Post
Coming into this discussion very late to say that from my POV, having gone through the "feminist" era myself, women were sold a bill of goods in the deal. We were told that we had a right to equal work, equal pay, that sex should be without consequence (and therefore, without meaning), that children and family were less important than our individual self-esteem and self-realization (always in a career).

Now look at where we are, 30 years later. Women have grown up with nothing other than the knowledge that they are expected to work, not only to work, mind you, but to find a CAREER that gives them satisfaction and monetary reward. Women who dare to express the desire to marry and raise their own children are scoffed at, mocked, derided, ignored. With 3 generations of working women in the can, what have we gained?

Our children are warehoused so we can go to those careers. When we reclaim our babies at the end of the day, we are already tired and impatient with them because we have spent the entire day in the company of other adults. Then we go home, to fulfill the other side of our duties, since the home is still considered mainly to be the purview of women, regardless of whether or not she has an outside job. The children spend their early and most formative years in the company of other orphans, with total strangers, even if those strangers are quite loving. They are not mother.

For this reason, and many others (contraception and its fallout), it is my considered opinion that the "feminist" movement or whatever name you wish to call it, has HARMED the lot of women more than "liberated" them. We are now expected to work outside the home, to enjoy our work, to be ambitious in that career, and yet, someone still has to do the lion's share of childcare and home care once both working parents return. And most of us WANT to be there for our children, we still have the nurturing instinct that God built into us. So it's not even as though we can just split the duties with our husbands and all is well.

There were many agendas at play during the 1960's and 1970's. It's naive and simple to make that time into some kind of ideal "liberation" for women when there was more to the movements than met the eye.
Thank you. Bravo.
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  #95  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:40 pm
FaithBuild18 FaithBuild18 is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by Luna Lovecraft View Post
The USCCB is committed to fair employment practices.



Workers aren't widgets. You can't unplug one and just stick another one in its place.

If Family B has no working adults in it, then we need to ensure there are enough education and job training opportunities so that there are enough qualified applicant for all of the available jobs in our economy.

There is no reason to discourage one group of people from providing for their own families for this to happen.

Luna
Actually, I just want to return to this point. It's easy to think that all Americans are pioneers, entrepreneurs, or even private sector workers, but the reality is that the vast majority of workers, yes, can be substituted for in the work force like widgets.

Yes, if you're smart enough you can obtain the American dream and start your own business and slide yourself into a clever niche in the market, but this is rare and becoming increasingly rare in society. There are millions upon millions of jobs in this country held by people who learned everything they know only after getting the job, and which require only highly common skills that can be learned virtually by anyone.
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  #96  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:04 pm
LisaA LisaA is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by Luna Lovecraft View Post
I agree, but I wish gender weren't part of the conversation. There are women who earn more and provide their families with better benefits. In such a situation, if the couple decides that it's better for their family for one parent to be home with the children, there's nothing wrong with the man staying home.



Obviously. But if we want to remain relevant in today's world, we do have to acknowledge that the world isn't what it we think it was in the 1950s or in upper class Victorian society. Women are educated and have skill sets that allow them to provide economically for their families. If we poo-poo that or pass judgement on working women we're marginalizing ourselves and our influence on society. And I think the USCCB understands this with its position in favor of equal employment opportunities.

Luna
Perhaps a little picky point but gender SHOULD be part of the conversation. Men and women are different and one of the most destructive forces of feminism is trying to make gender irrelevant as if it were necessary to be the same to be equal either under the law or under the eyes of God. We are equal and no one can argue against that. But we are not the same. Men and women not only have different plumbing but different natures. People who tried to give girls trucks to play with and boys dolls found that the girls tucked their trucks into bed or and boys turned the dolls into weapons. Instead of glorifying and recognizing the benefits of these differences, I think feminism has tried to make females into "She Men" and to feminize males into....well you know.

I agree there is nothing wrong with a stay at home dad. I have a co-worker whose profession pays significantly more than her husband's and she's at work while he's at home with their two boys. They have made that decision for their family and it works for them. There is nothing wrong with women getting an education or focusing on preparing themselves for a profession either. No one has argued that. But I don't think we can pretend that gender doesn't matter either for profession or for child rearing nor that men and women have different natures and when you try to go against those natures, the unintended consequences are pretty dramatic. The goals of feminism might have been well intended, at least on the part of some. But the actual results have IMO been pretty disasterous in many ways.

Lisa
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  #97  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:15 pm
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Allegra Allegra is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by LilHomemaker View Post
I am not saying I think caring for one's family is a drudgery, that is what our culture tells women that it is. It can be one of the most put down and teased jobs but in reality it is one of a woman's highest calling.

I, also agree, young girls should get an education. I did. My father always encouraged that. Training in caring for one's home should be part of her education, too. That seems to be lost.

I am not putting down any woman who works or has to work. I just hate to see women choose career, further education and climbing the ladder over family. And as I previous noted I am a part time nurse and I have to take questioning and teasing when saying no to my boss and coworkers so I can say yes to family and home.
I would hate to see any parent choose their career over their family. Children need their mothers AND their fathers. Both husbands and wives need their spouses. If any person's job is taking over their homelife, it's time for a reevaluation.
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  #98  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:47 pm
LilHomemaker LilHomemaker is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Originally Posted by Allegra View Post
I would hate to see any parent choose their career over their family. Children need their mothers AND their fathers. Both husbands and wives need their spouses. If any person's job is taking over their homelife, it's time for a reevaluation.
I agree.
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"O unfathomable depth! O Deity eternal! O deep ocean! What more could You give me than to give me Yourself?" St. Catherine of Siena

It will be she (Mary) who makes the soul live incessantly for Jesus Christ, and will make Jesus live in the soul” St. Louis de Montfort
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  #99  
Old Feb 25, '12, 2:50 pm
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Luna Lovecraft Luna Lovecraft is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Actually, I just want to return to this point. It's easy to think that all Americans are pioneers, entrepreneurs, or even private sector workers, but the reality is that the vast majority of workers, yes, can be substituted for in the work force like widgets.
I beg to differ simply because my husband and I just went through a 3.5-year job search that was partly caused by many of today's living-wage jobs requiring licensure or some kind of educational/professional qualification.

He was finally hired as a truck driver, but to get that job he had to go through a four-week vocational program, pass three qualifying written and driving tests - one for his driving license and two for his employer - and pass a six-week on the job training in order to get first seat status and his own rig. His fleet manager didn't hire him, hand him a set of keys, and wish him good luck in getting things figured out.

I don't know the exact amount, but I'd reckon his employer has spent at least 6K in trainers' salaries, hotels, transportation, and licensing fees to get him up and running for them. And that's on top of his salary. If he quit tomorrow, yes he could be replaced. With another truck drive that the company will have to spend thousands on to get up and going in a rig.

Same with my job. If I quit tomorrow, of course I could be replaced. With another teacher with the same state-mandated set of degrees and credentials that I have. And my district would again spend thousands on professional development training to get that person going in their own classroom.

Truck drivers, teachers, paralegals, welders, nurses, xray technicians, dental hygienists, office managers, I'm hard pressed to think of many living-wage jobs that don't need employer-funded training and qualifications.

This is what I mean by employees not being interchangable cogs. Replaceable cogs, yes. All of us are replaceable. But if we're making enough to support a family, replacing us is going to cost our employers lots of money I'm sure they'd rather not spend.

Now, if you want to talk about minimum-wage jobs, people come and go from those all the time. Employers expect that. And generally they don't spend a whole lot in training and developing those employees and instead expect those employees to learn as they go. But at least where I live, it's nigh-on impossible to support one person much less a family on a minimum-wage job.

Luna
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  #100  
Old Feb 25, '12, 3:25 pm
LisaA LisaA is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Actually, I just want to return to this point. It's easy to think that all Americans are pioneers, entrepreneurs, or even private sector workers, but the reality is that the vast majority of workers, yes, can be substituted for in the work force like widgets.

Yes, if you're smart enough you can obtain the American dream and start your own business and slide yourself into a clever niche in the market, but this is rare and becoming increasingly rare in society. There are millions upon millions of jobs in this country held by people who learned everything they know only after getting the job, and which require only highly common skills that can be learned virtually by anyone.
Luna L, not to speak for FaithBuild18 but I think the point was not that most jobs are easy or menial but that women were sold on the theory that outside work would invariably be mentally stimulating, challenging, and if not fun, at least more exciting and enriching than the "drudgery" of housework and childrearing.

What most have found is something men have known for many years, most jobs are just that, jobs. Necessary to provide for a family and perhaps bringing self satisfaction but not the reason you get up in the morning.

Lisa
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  #101  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:36 pm
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Luna Lovecraft Luna Lovecraft is offline
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Luna L, not to speak for FaithBuild18 but I think the point was not that most jobs are easy or menial but that women were sold on the theory that outside work would invariably be mentally stimulating, challenging, and if not fun, at least more exciting and enriching than the "drudgery" of housework and childrearing.

What most have found is something men have known for many years, most jobs are just that, jobs. Necessary to provide for a family and perhaps bringing self satisfaction but not the reason you get up in the morning.

Lisa
My heart goes out to the women and men who don't find challenge, stimulation and fun in their employment. I am truly blessed to be able to get up in the morning and look forward to doing what it is that I do. If I saw my job as drugery and little more than a paycheck, I'd be looking for the exit door as soon as possible.

My grandfather was a dairy farmer who found great joy in running his farm. He was a man of his times and therefore wasn't the most expressive of people, but if you spent enough time around him you could tell how much he enjoyed being around his animals. It was through his inspiration that I was determined to find a vocation that was more than a job.

In my mind, there's nothing boring or tedious about running a house or taking care of children. Again, my heart goes out to people who can't see or don't see what an incredibly demanding and important job it is to raise up children.

Luna
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  #102  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:39 pm
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Luna L, not to speak for FaithBuild18 but I think the point was not that most jobs are easy or menial but that women were sold on the theory that outside work would invariably be mentally stimulating, challenging, and if not fun, at least more exciting and enriching than the "drudgery" of housework and childrearing.

What most have found is something men have known for many years, most jobs are just that, jobs. Necessary to provide for a family and perhaps bringing self satisfaction but not the reason you get up in the morning.

Lisa
Most jobs are just jobs. And the "drudgery" is easier, more rewarding, and has to get done either way. While there are rewarding jobs out there, most women would rather be at home with their babies if they have them. The reason for their working isn't selfishness, but because their family is depending on them to do so.
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  #103  
Old Feb 27, '12, 12:20 pm
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Default Re: Why is the USCCB so big on women working?

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Perhaps don't agree with the statement that women shouldn't be in jobs held traditionally by men (other than those requiring physical ability that few women possess) but I do agree that the change in traditional roles has been a huge disaster for children and families. Women have forged their way into the working world outside the home, taking on that breadwinner (traditionally male) role. and sadly some men particularly in certain communities have thus abdicated their role as provider and protector leaving our country with a massive percentage of single mothers without a male in the home to both provide for and protect his family. There are two words that describe the cause of poverty in this country "single mothers" and no that doesn't mean they are bad people but the reality is that children raised in intact families with a mother and father married to each other are far less likely to be living off the rest of the taxpayers, dealing with drugs, teen pregnancies, and other unproductive behavior.

As a female who lived through "Women's Lib" as they called it, I can assure you this movement bore evil fruits even if the intentions were noble. Males and females have different natures and when you force either into an unnatural way of life, it does not bring out the best in either sex. We are now plagued with a bastion of irresponsible sperm donors, women who do not have the financial or emotional reserves to provide a good environment for raising children and the poor children who are dragged through the parents' chaotic lives. And before the onslaught of "well my mom was single and she was a saint" begins, I am talking about the average situation, not the exception. The statistics are clear. "Breadwinner mom" and no father is a recipe for poverty. Women being expected to work, and they are these days, has completely changed the way children grow up in this country. Free love, free sex, do what feels good have created some of the evil fruits previously described. Women being "liberated" from the 'chains' of taking care of their families to go out and earn money has only made them over worked, over tired and overwhelmed.

Lisa
Hi Lisa, interesting post but I'd really like to know what statistics you have on single parenting and poverty since I saw some eye-opening figures this weekend.
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  #104  
Old Feb 27, '12, 12:41 pm
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Hi Lisa, interesting post but I'd really like to know what statistics you have on single parenting and poverty since I saw some eye-opening figures this weekend.
Please share them! Every source I have seen indicates a much higher incidence of poverty among single mothers than for married mothers. I just saw a list of poverty rates by country for single mothers and the US was among the highest, nearly 50%. This was based on having income less than 50% of the median.

If you have statistics that single mothers and their children are at a financial advantage I'd love to see this.

Lisa
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  #105  
Old Feb 27, '12, 12:53 pm
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Please share them! Every source I have seen indicates a much higher incidence of poverty among single mothers than for married mothers. I just saw a list of poverty rates by country for single mothers and the US was among the highest, nearly 50%. This was based on having income less than 50% of the median.

If you have statistics that single mothers and their children are at a financial advantage I'd love to see this.

Lisa
Not a financial advantage but not near as dire a picture as I've seen painted. According to this article (which I haven't double-checked for accuracy), 27% of single mothers and their children live in poverty - not the percentages in the mid-40's that I've seen elsewhere. I don't know the comparable percentage for married couples for the same period but it's likely much lower. Again, I suppose household financial situation depends on whether 'single parent' means divorced with alimony/child support, versus sole breadwinner, vs unmarried but in a 'committed' relationship.
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