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  #46  
Old Feb 21, '12, 9:25 am
Jeremiah1278 Jeremiah1278 is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane View Post
You can't "peek at the screen" if it's turned away from you, which is what abortionists currently do when assessing the baby's age.

The section I bolded goes directly against experience. Come to Planned Parenthood and watch an abortion-minded woman change her mind as she sees her baby in color 4D on a screen right next to her. It works nearly every time.
They use color 4D! at PP? I don't think my insurance pays for that, and I want to see my baby.

If a mother wants to see the ultrasound and a doctor or tech doesn't let her see it, I think that is wrong. If a mother doesn't want to see the ultrasound, I'm not convinced it's the roll of the state legislature to decide for the medical/ethical experts that it is necessary for her to give informed consent.

Anyway. If it passes and more women choose life, I'll be happy. I hope you're right.
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  #47  
Old Feb 21, '12, 9:35 am
CMatt25 CMatt25 is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound...

Is it okay? It depends on if you think government intrudes too much in our lives and wants to take away our liberties, and if you want to be consistent.
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  #48  
Old Feb 21, '12, 9:39 am
TheRealJuliane TheRealJuliane is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound...

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Originally Posted by Jeremiah1278 View Post
They use color 4D! at PP? I don't think my insurance pays for that, and I want to see my baby.

If a mother wants to see the ultrasound and a doctor or tech doesn't let her see it, I think that is wrong. If a mother doesn't want to see the ultrasound, I'm not convinced it's the roll of the state legislature to decide for the medical/ethical experts that it is necessary for her to give informed consent.

Anyway. If it passes and more women choose life, I'll be happy. I hope you're right.
I apologize for the way I wrote that, I corrected my post. It is a mobile crisis pregnancy clinic (tour bus sized) and the Knights of Columbus helped fund the 4D ultrasound unit. No way does PP have that equipment and even if they did, they would not let the woman see her baby. I have heard many confirmations that if a woman does request to see the ultrasound, the tech in PP will move the wand away from the baby and show her nothing more than the lining of her uterus. That is, after all, what is being aborted, "a clump of tissue," or "a few cells." How could they show a woman an actual baby and expect to her agree to kill it?

This law has already passed and been upheld in Texas, and I will be very intrigued to see how this affects PP's bottom line.

The original bill in Texas did REQUIRE the woman to see the ultrasound, but it was modified to require the clinic to perform the US, and if the woman does not want to see it, she has to sign off that she waves her rights. I'm down with that. It's a good step on the way to eliminating abortion.
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  #49  
Old Feb 21, '12, 10:27 am
TraderTif's Avatar
TraderTif TraderTif is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound...

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/02/21/p...on-ultrasound/
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  #50  
Old Feb 21, '12, 10:39 am
Jeremiah1278 Jeremiah1278 is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound...

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Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane View Post
I apologize for the way I wrote that, I corrected my post . . . (snip, snip) . . . How could they show a woman an actual baby and expect to her agree to kill it?

This law has already passed and been upheld in Texas, and I will be very intrigued to see how this affects PP's bottom line.

The original bill in Texas did REQUIRE the woman to see the ultrasound, but it was modified to require the clinic to perform the US, and if the woman does not want to see it, she has to sign off that she waves her rights. I'm down with that. It's a good step on the way to eliminating abortion.
Oh no apology necessary. Whether a woman can actually give informed consent to an abortion without seeing the ultrasound is good point. I'll certainly continue to think about it all.
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  #51  
Old Feb 21, '12, 11:24 am
St Francis St Francis is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound...

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Originally Posted by Dan McVay View Post
Except a woman chooses and consents to an abortion. The new legislation would force a procedure even if the doctor finds it is unnecessary and the woman does not want it.

Where are all the Catholics who have been arguing for freedom in medical care?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
Is it okay? It depends on if you think government intrudes too much in our lives and wants to take away our liberties, and if you want to be consistent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TraderTif View Post
Dan and Matt,
I hope you will each take a moment to read the short article linked by Trader. It shows how abortionists already generally use ultrasound, and what the consequences can be for skipping an ultrasound.
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"The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes; she is tolerant in practice because she loves. The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe; they are intolerant in practice because they do not love."
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  #52  
Old Feb 21, '12, 11:30 am
St Francis St Francis is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound...

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Originally Posted by Dan McVay View Post
Except a woman chooses and consents to an abortion. The new legislation would force a procedure even if the doctor finds it is unnecessary and the woman does not want it.

Where are all the Catholics who have been arguing for freedom in medical care?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMatt25 View Post
Is it okay? It depends on if you think government intrudes too much in our lives and wants to take away our liberties, and if you want to be consistent.
You two both seem to think that conservatives think there is no role for the government. This is not true. Conservatives believe there is a role for the government, and that the government in the US has overstepped the bounds in some areas and negelected its duties in other areas. Liberals happen to disagree with the areas of intrusiin and neglect.

There is no call to try to bring freedom from government intrusion in, and we can surely all agree that protecting women by ensuring proper medical procedure and that ensuring that consent is indeed fully informed are both good things and appropriate government actions.
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"The Church is intolerant in principle because she believes; she is tolerant in practice because she loves. The enemies of the Church are tolerant in principle because they do not believe; they are intolerant in practice because they do not love."
-Rev. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange O.P



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  #53  
Old Feb 21, '12, 11:32 am
LucyLight LucyLight is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound...

No its not okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound. Its not okay to force a woman to do anything. It is okay to deny someone a service if they are not willing to follow the legal requirements imposed.
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  #54  
Old Feb 22, '12, 8:22 am
juliee juliee is offline
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Default Planned Parenthood Rape Myth Debunked, 99% Do Ultrasounds

Planned Parenthood Rape Myth Debunked, 99% Do Ultrasounds

Richmond, VA - Abortion advocates in Virginia have come under heavy criticism for equating the ultrasounds legislation there would allow women to see before an abortion to rape. Yet, while abortion backers say having an ultrasound is like getting raped, a 2003 study shows 99% of Planned Parenthood abortion facilities do them beforehand.

http://www.lifenews.com/2012/02/22/p...o-ultrasounds/
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  #55  
Old Feb 22, '12, 4:11 pm
silenced silenced is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corki View Post
What would be the purpose? There has to be a reason to do the test. The situation in the OP isn't just randomly giving ultrasounds for no reason. It is for a specific result.

Let's say a woman chooses to work in a lab with exposure to radiation. The employer can only employ non-pregnant women in this particular lab. If the vaginal ultra-sound is the only way to ensure that they aren't unintentionally exposing a child to fatal radiation, then "yes", it would be okay to require an untrasound if the woman chooses to pursue that job.
Fatal radiation?? Please explain this comment.
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  #56  
Old Feb 22, '12, 4:13 pm
silenced silenced is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound...

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Originally Posted by LucyLight View Post
No its not okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound. Its not okay to force a woman to do anything. It is okay to deny someone a service if they are not willing to follow the legal requirements imposed.
Along these lines of thinking, then, ultrasound should not be required by law. This is nothing more than manipulation of a woman's reproductive life, and it is reprehensible.
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  #57  
Old Feb 22, '12, 5:16 pm
TheRealJuliane TheRealJuliane is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound...

Quote:
Originally Posted by silenced View Post
Along these lines of thinking, then, ultrasound should not be required by law. This is nothing more than manipulation of a woman's reproductive life, and it is reprehensible.
Manipulation of a woman's reproductive life? We are talking about women who are about to take the life of their unborn child! That's not reproduction! Reproduction i.e. creation of a child, is done long before the ultrasound takes place. Is it manipulation of a woman's reproductive life to have an ultrasound if she plans to keep her baby?

Your logic is flawed.
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  #58  
Old Feb 23, '12, 2:54 am
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound...

In response to the OP, I would say my feeling is "no". Sadly, abortion is legal - as much as we oppose it - so the decision on whether, when and how to do an ultrasound should be based on medical expertise. Most surgical procedures are not described in graphic detail prior to being carried out, so while I understand the intent of this legislation, I do not really see a consent issue here. It might be hard to accept that women who seek abortion have full knowledge of what it entails, but that if often the case.

I might add that mandating any medical procedure in the absence of medical experts deeming it necessary, does not make sense to me (and I do see a precedent here). While I find that comparing this legislation to rape is extreme, I see ethical issues in non-medical personnel unilaterally deciding (even with the best of intentions) what interventions a doctor must perform.
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From the age of pharaohs through myriad mutations of the enduring human inclination to oppress and exclude through unjust remuneration, the basic justification has remained unchanged. It is the fear, affected or real, propounded by countless leaders, scholars, and statesman, that extending justice to all, will lead to national impoverishment and decline. Cyclical retelling of the Exodus story among people of faith serves to celebrate the role of God's saving justice in the human cycle of oppression and redemption. It also serves as an admonition to be on the right side of this story in every age and time.
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  #59  
Old Feb 23, '12, 11:37 am
jilly4ski jilly4ski is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound...

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
In response to the OP, I would say my feeling is "no". Sadly, abortion is legal - as much as we oppose it - so the decision on whether, when and how to do an ultrasound should be based on medical expertise. Most surgical procedures are not described in graphic detail prior to being carried out, so while I understand the intent of this legislation, I do not really see a consent issue here. It might be hard to accept that women who seek abortion have full knowledge of what it entails, but that if often the case.

I might add that mandating any medical procedure in the absence of medical experts deeming it necessary, does not make sense to me (and I do see a precedent here). While I find that comparing this legislation to rape is extreme, I see ethical issues in non-medical personnel unilaterally deciding (even with the best of intentions) what interventions a doctor must perform.
I don't know what kind of experience you have, but in my limited experience, my surgical removal of my wisdom teeth was described in great graphic detail. I was told that they would cut my gums open and for the bottom impacted teeth, they would drill to break the tooth in half, then after pulling out the exposed part of the tooth, the back part would half to be extracted by pressure on my gums. I was shown pictures, models and my own x-rays, of the area and the procedure. As well as pictures of the risks of waiting for the procedure, including roots, being entangled in the nerve at the bottom of the jaw.

As to your second point, a) legislatures make fact finding decisions all the time, in things they are not professionals or experts in, they do studies and ask professionals b) the state regulates the medical field, they license doctors and procedures, they consider this their job to protect the public c) If a doctor preformed an abortion without doing an ultrasound, it is already malpractice, this law just attaches new penalties to the doctors failure. (And slightly new liability, as even if he doesn't screw up he is still liable).
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  #60  
Old Feb 23, '12, 2:57 pm
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: Is it okay to force a woman to have an ultrasound...

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Originally Posted by jilly4ski View Post
I don't know what kind of experience you have, but in my limited experience, my surgical removal of my wisdom teeth was described in great graphic detail. I was told that they would cut my gums open and for the bottom impacted teeth, they would drill to break the tooth in half, then after pulling out the exposed part of the tooth, the back part would half to be extracted by pressure on my gums. I was shown pictures, models and my own x-rays, of the area and the procedure. As well as pictures of the risks of waiting for the procedure, including roots, being entangled in the nerve at the bottom of the jaw.

As to your second point, a) legislatures make fact finding decisions all the time, in things they are not professionals or experts in, they do studies and ask professionals b) the state regulates the medical field, they license doctors and procedures, they consider this their job to protect the public c) If a doctor preformed an abortion without doing an ultrasound, it is already malpractice, this law just attaches new penalties to the doctors failure. (And slightly new liability, as even if he doesn't screw up he is still liable).
I have had major surgery more than once, and so have multiple family members - I don't remember anyone showing a CTscan and saying, "here is you infected appendix". Many doctors do show images after a procedure, if pictures were taken. So, unless I have never given proper consent, it doesn't seem to me that images are necessary for someone to understand the essentials of the procedure they are about to undergo. I'm not saying that a woman may not be dissuaded from abortion by an ultrasound or that this not a desirable outcome, but simply that it is a stretch to make this a matter of informed consent. We also have to consider the unintended consequences of legislation of this nature beyond the narrow boundaries of abortion.

As for what is malpractice and what is not..I'd be quite happy to leave those discussions to people qualified to have them. Since I am not a provider of abortions and not familiar with the standard of care for them, I will offer no opinion of whether of not ultrasounds are always medically necessary. However, I will ask why the law is necessary if such ultrasounds are routinely done? Wouldn't it suffice if doctors were required to present women with printed (and signed) material informing them of the need for the ultrasound and their right to see/discuss it (in much the same manner as doctor's offices are required to distribute privacy notices to all patients)? Guess I'm still trying to see a motivation other than coercion here...
__________________
From the age of pharaohs through myriad mutations of the enduring human inclination to oppress and exclude through unjust remuneration, the basic justification has remained unchanged. It is the fear, affected or real, propounded by countless leaders, scholars, and statesman, that extending justice to all, will lead to national impoverishment and decline. Cyclical retelling of the Exodus story among people of faith serves to celebrate the role of God's saving justice in the human cycle of oppression and redemption. It also serves as an admonition to be on the right side of this story in every age and time.
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