Sacrifice of the Mass

[Christ Bearer]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

Christ Bearer,

Depends on who you ask. I don't care for the gender neutral trend. I think a Bible translation needs to remain as true as possible to reliable manuscripts.

Anna

I agree. Not a big fan of the gender inclusive bibles. What are some good Catholic bibles that don't have this feature, yet are essentially literal? The old RSV I know is pretty good, but the NRSV is loaded with gender inclusiveness.

[Boogie43]

Christbearer,, If you are truly seeking the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH, it will boil down to Church authority and the Eucharist. This is coming from a former Baptist that converted. Study what the Church teaches about The Real Presence and what The Early Church Fathers taught, then study The Gospel of John chapter 6. I promise you it is hard to argue with

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by Christ Bearer

I agree. Not a big fan of the gender inclusive bibles. What are some good Catholic bibles that don't have this feature, yet are essentially literal? The old RSV I know is pretty good, but the NRSV is loaded with gender inclusiveness.

I know. Actually, the Catechism of the Catholic Church uses the RSV and NRSV.

Anna

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by Christ Bearer

I agree. Not a big fan of the gender inclusive bibles. What are some good Catholic bibles that don't have this feature, yet are essentially literal? The old RSV I know is pretty good, but the NRSV is loaded with gender inclusiveness.

Christ Bearer,
The Catholic Bible Association adopted the Revised Standard Version, used primarily by non-Catholics--though ecumenical--and edited it for Catholic use. The RSV became the Revised Standard Version- Catholic Edition. It has been reissued under the title, The Ignatius Bible (there may be other titles at this point.)

Anna

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by Boogie43

Christbearer,, If you are truly seeking the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH, it will boil down to Church authority and the Eucharist. This is coming from a former Baptist that converted. Study what the Church teaches about The Real Presence and what The Early Church Fathers taught, then study The Gospel of John chapter 6. I promise you it is hard to argue with

Boogie43,

Welcome to CAF.

Keep in mind Christ Bearer is here to ask about the Catholic faith to clear up misconceptions--such as worshiping The Blessed Virgin Mary, when Catholics actually venerate her (addressed on another thread.)

In this thread, he is asking if Christ is sacrificed over and over again in the Holy Eucharist, which is another misconception.

Right now, he just needs some answers. I know you are passionate about your faith; but maybe ease up on the sledge hammer a bit.

Peace,
Anna

[jlhargus]

Originally Posted by Christ Bearer

Here goes number 2 comment/question from a traditional protestant... *The Mass being a fresh sacrifice of Christ is a blasphemy. The book of Hebrews among other scriptures clearly states that Christ's sacrifice was "once for all". I even knew of a former Catholic Priest who left the Catholic Church because he said that when he read the book of Hebrews "things just weren't lining up". How can Christ be sacrifice over and over again when he said on the cross "it is finished!" ?

JL: Mass is the wedding supper of the Lamb. What did Christ finish on the cross? Paul says, If Christ be not raised your faith is vain you are yet in your sins. 1Cor 15:17. The OT High Priest entered the earthly Holy of Holies with the blood of the sacrificial victim, Pascal lamb, to make atonement. Christ as victim, our Pascal Lamb, rose as both victim and High Priest. He ascended entering the Holy of Holies, not made by hands, with his blood to make atonement.

[Hb9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; BUT INTO HEAVEN ITSELF, now TO APPEAR in the presence of God FOR US:]. Showing forth forever, His bloody wounds as THE one unique Mediator. Bringing to remembrance that PURE OFFERING and propitiation for our sins, to the Father. Making that once for all sacrifice and our Passover Lamb present to us at mass. At mass we eat the Passover Lamb, just as the Israelites had to eat the earthly Passover lamb. The bread of life His body and the blood of the Lamb, under the appearance of bread and wine.

[Ex 25:30 and thou hast put on the table BREAD OF THE PRESENCE before Me CONTINUALLY. ] The bread of the Presence is placed on a table before the Presence of God above the Ark of the Old Covenant in the Holy of Holies. The Temple bread of the Presence is a type and foreshadowing, of Christ and his real Presence, as the bread of life, the Lamb of God, who will stand in the midst of the throne as MEDIATOR bringing to remembrance the sacrifice of the cross, before the Father.

[Rv 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, IN THE MIDST OF THE THRONE and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, STOOD A LAMB AS it had been SLAIN, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.] Our slain sacrificed Passover Lamb the Bread of Life with his atoning blood ever living and present in the true Holy of Holies in the midst of the throne before God the Father mediating,

[1Jn2:1 MY LITTLE CHILDREN, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And IF ANY MAN SIN, we have AN ADVOCATE WITH THE FATHER, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.]. Christ is our propitiation for sins before and after baptism, bringing to remembrance and making present his once for all sacrifice of great mercy. Our PURE OFFERING, Jesus Christ, our living High Priest making intercession for us. That same once for all sacrifice of the cross. There is no re-sacrifice it is the same once done MADE PRESENT, to us, a living memorial sacrifice.

CONTINUED

[jlhargus]

CONTINUED:

[Malachi 1:11 For FROM THE RISING OF THE SUN even UNTO the GOING DOWN of the same my name shall be great among THE GENTILES; and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be OFFERED unto my name, AND A PURE OFFERING: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. [That PURE OFFERING=sacrifice, this IS my body, this IS my blood, is our Eucharistic (Thank Offering, Todah in Hebrew) Lord Jesus Christ. Animal sacrifces had to be clean, but they could never be pure, only Christ our sacrifice is that PURE OFFERING from the rising to the setting of the sun.]

[Rv 5:6 And I beheld in the midst of the throne .................................. stood a Lamb as it had been slain.............. Hb 7: 17 ...............Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hb 7:24 ... THIS MAN ........... continues ever ....... an unchangeable priesthood 25 Wherefore he is able also to save .................... seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them. ....................................... Hb 8 ........................... We have such an high priest.................... 2 A minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle ................................... 3 .. every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices wherefore IT IS OF NECESSITY THAT THIS MAN HAVE SOMEWHAT ALSO TO OFFER 4 ..................... priests that offer gifts according to the law 5 .... serve to the EXAMPLE and SHADOW OF HEAVENLY THINGS... ...................... 6 But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry...................... MEDIATOR OF A BETTER COVENANT ....... Hb9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; BUT into HEAVEN itself, NOW TO APPEAR IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD FOR US:]

Christ is not just sitting and watching events, he is our High Priest interceding for us with the Father, bringing to remembrance to the Father and to us that same once for all sacrifice of the lamb on the Cross. This is how he exercises His unique Mediatorship. Making present to us at Mass that we might eat our Passover Lamb. Just as the Israelites ate their Passover lamb. [JN 6:55 My flesh IS meat indeed, my blood IS drink indeed.]

Malacahi 1:11 ..from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles and IN EVERY PLACE INCENSE shall be offered to my name AND A PURE OFFERING] The prophecy of Malachi says Gentiles will offer incense and make a pure offering (sacrifice) to the Lord's Name from the rising to setting of the sun in every place. That is fulfilled in the Catholic Church as that same once for all sacrifice of the cross is made present at Mass which is celebrated by priests in every parish daily in all places of the world. The Orthodox Church has this same pure offering also.

The fruit, of the the Tree of Life=Cross, our Passover Lamb is eaten at mass. [Hb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren THAT HE MIGHT BE a merciful and faithful HIGH PRIEST in things pertaining to God TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE 1Jn 2:2 2 And HE IS THE PROPITIATION FOR OUR SINS: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

[Hb9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but THE HEAVENLY THINGS themselves WITH BETTER SACRIFICES than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now TO APPEAR in the presence of God FOR US:] BETTER SACRIFICES, plural, because that once for all sacrifice of Christ is made sacramentally present to us every time mass is offered. This IS my body, this IS my blood, with these words the living memorial sacrifice is accomplished by the sacaramental separation of body and blood showing forth Christ’s death.

Hb7:25 Wherefore HE IS ABLE also TO SAVE THEM to the uttermost THAT COME UNTO GOD BY HIM, seeing HE EVER LIVETH TO MAKE INTERCESSION FOR THEM. Hb12:22 but YE ARE COME UNTO MOUNT SION, and unto THE CITY OF THE LIVING GOD, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and TO GOD THE JUDGE OF ALL, and TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, 24 And TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR of the new covenant, and TO THE BLOOD OF SPRINKLING, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

[Boogie43]

Originally Posted by Anna Scott

Boogie43,

Welcome to CAF.

Keep in mind Christ Bearer is here to ask about the Catholic faith to clear up misconceptions--such as worshiping The Blessed Virgin Mary, when Catholics actually venerate her (addressed on another thread.)

In this thread, he is asking if Christ is sacrificed over and over again in the Holy Eucharist, which is another misconception.

Right now, he just needs some answers. I know you are passionate about your faith; but maybe ease up on the sledge hammer a bit.

Peace,
Anna

Anna, I apologize, I didn't mean to sound overbearing.

[the phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christ Bearer

In my first thread I asked about the veneration of Mary. Very helpful thoughts everyone contributed. I am still chewing on much of it. Thank you!

Here goes number 2 comment/question from a traditional protestant...

*The Mass being a fresh sacrifice of Christ is a blasphemy. The book of Hebrews among other scriptures clearly states that Christ's sacrifice was "once for all". I even knew of a former Catholic Priest who left the Catholic Church because he said that when he read the book of Hebrews "things just weren't lining up". How can Christ be sacrifice over and over again when he said on the cross "it is finished!" ?

God's Love is stronger than death. God's Love transcends space and time.
And so when the priest holds up the host and says the words of consecration,
the priest makes Christ's once-for-all sacrifice present to you ...
You are standing at the foot of the Cross,
You are seeing the Risen Jesus ...
all with the eyes of faith.

Think of the Mass as being like a Time Machine ... or Time and Space Machine
that transports you back 2,000 years to the Holy Land
so that you can experience Christ's love for you
in a personal way.

Or as more commonly said,
the Mass is an unbloody re-presentation of Christ's sacrifice.

Hope this helps.

[Julia Mae]

Originally Posted by Christ Bearer

In my first thread I asked about the veneration of Mary. Very helpful thoughts everyone contributed. I am still chewing on much of it. Thank you!

Here goes number 2 comment/question from a traditional protestant...

*The Mass being a fresh sacrifice of Christ is a blasphemy. The book of Hebrews among other scriptures clearly states that Christ's sacrifice was "once for all". I even knew of a former Catholic Priest who left the Catholic Church because he said that when he read the book of Hebrews "things just weren't lining up". How can Christ be sacrifice over and over again when he said on the cross "it is finished!" ?

I think this is the operative teaching:

For in it Christ perpetuates in an unbloody manner the sacrifice offered on the Cross, offering Himself to the Father for the world’s salvation through the ministry of priests.” [Vatican 2 Documents.9:3]

This is a Mystery, the greatest gift and mystery. The completion of the Sacrifice, which actually comprises the entire existence of the 2nd person of the Trinity in Time, Who became Christ for us, changes the nature of the Universe in such a way that there is a ... connecting thread... between Time and Eternity that can never be broken.

That is: on every altar of every Catholic Church around the world every single day, Time and Eternity are met. This is the perpetual moment of Sacrifice, re-presented, or made actual.

The sacrifice of Christ is not only perfect but perpetual. It is "finished" because He erected something Eternal and inviolable. The 2nd Person of the Trinity did not complete an act and then return to what was, but became Christ for us. Forever. The Sacrament makes us present to that moment and Him Present to us.

It's ... totally life-changing.

[Anna Scott]

Originally Posted by Boogie43

Anna, I apologize, I didn't mean to sound overbearing.

Boogie43,

I know. I could feel your passion about your faith, and I respect that. Coming from a Baptist background (which is my background as well); you can understand that it takes time to correct misconceptions and open up to the possibility that what you have been taught most of your life may be wrong. Just think baby steps, like in the movie "What About Bob." That has certainly been the case for me. I'm still taking baby steps, one day at a time.

Peace to you; and again welcome to CAF,
Anna

[Anna Scott]

I hate to interrupt and I know this is way off topic; but I just can't help it.

JustaServant started a thread about Bulletin Bloopers that made me laugh until I cried. The photo of a Church sign was just too much:

Originally Posted by Daralharb

Double-entendres... fun for everyone!

Anna

[KathleenGee]

Christ Bearer,

God bless you for reflecting on our sharings of Mary...there seemed to be some apparent spiritual disturbances when you came on...

Reading through these past posts, the members here have been consistently clear that the Mass is a memorial. We do not worship through Bible services. Our means of worshiping God are of God and by God, just as the ancient Jews were taught how to worship, how to build the temple, the role and even manner of dress of the priest, the daily rituals....all these given to the people through Moses by God.

And at the Last Supper Christ says to His apostles, 'Do This in memory of me...This is..My Body...This is My Blood'...and not only do we receive Christ's Body and Blood, but His Soul and Divinity. The apostles did not create this worship.

This worship is the most pleasing to the Father because the sacrifice is His Son. The Book of Hebrew was the last book of Scripture to be determined by the Holy Spirit working in the Church, after 200 years of discernment, for public revelation.

The other point is that God created time. We live in linear time. But the Church is a breathing, living sacrament here on earth where the 'High Mass' is joined with Mass on earth with Jesus standing at the throne of God as the Lamb of God. Subsequently, He holds on to His priesthood in heaven. And the priests of Melchizedek...of Whom Christ is head, and Whose priests now have no beginning or end, -- in contrast to the Levites who had to prove their lineage, who could only serve for a certain beginning and end, -- the priests of the Order of Melchizedek are consecrated in spirit and truth and serve the Lord throughout their lives, and remain a priest forever when they are finally united with the Lord in heaven. And, Melchizedek foresaw the perpetual sacrifice which is the Daily Sacrifice noted in Revelations.

When we go to Mass, we leave space and time, we leave the world, and into the place of God, we enter into transcendence...and there is something so nurturing and so truthful...to go to Mass on a daily basis....and fall into the daily rhythm of life...begun by connecting the rest of the day to follow with the Mass. The world for us is now put in Christ's order...how I wish I could attend daily Mass more!

Christ not only instituted a Passover Sacrifice but also a Communion Sacrifice of which all of us now partake.

The Mass is a Mystery... The Church is a mystery, we saved by our faith in the Lord, our sole perfection witnessed publicly in this world when we in faith, all over the world, every hour praise the Lord and affirm our Creed in Him. What Mystery does when we encounter it....the Mass a mystery, when we go to Mass, we are now into a new reality....God's reality, not in worldly time, but in the presence of God Himself.

Going to Mass, we are offered to God with Christ Who stands by Him and made perfect by Christ. Subsequently, the tone and spirit of our Mass is more silent, one of adoration. The more we understand the Mass, the more we are able to participate and understand the parts. Mystery in terms of faith is " all things in heaven and on earth recapitulated in Christ', Ephesians 1:9-10.

'The Eucharist Mystery is concrete, we say Amen when the bread and wine are changed into His Body and Blood through the Holy Spirit at the Epiclesis....the priest laying his hands over the gifts of bread and wine...mystery is something ordinary and concrete but its inner being is of God. 'The word mystery preserves the tension between the concrete and the divine'....Fr Jeremy Driscoll, 'What Happens at Mass.'.

The Greeks used the word mystery or sacred mysteries, but the West using Latin, instead uses the word sacrament, which is akin to mystery...a sacrament containing the divine grace of Christ within....but the Latin use of sacrament is for ritual such as Baptism and Eucharist, etc.

To give you an example that Christ at the altar, glorified with the Father, the Sacrficial Lamb uniting Himself to us through the gifts, does not die again, but gives us His life that continually pours out from Him....considering the imagery of the altar in Revelations 22. I came into Mass one Sunday late. I got to my pew and had just come in from work. I looked at the people facing the altar and was blessed with this grace that although they were standing still in their pew in space and time, the Mass was carrying them forward, closer to Christ, lifting them up to meet with the Lord.

The greatest feastday in the Church is not Christmas or Easter....but ordinary Resurrection Sunday...every Sunday! At the beginning of Mass we are exhorted to come to attention and participate most deeply this sacred event. There, the Lord makes Himself present with the same presence and power as He was on Resurrection Sunday.

The Mass has two liturgies: The Liturgy of the Word where we hear the Old Testament, the praises through the Psalms, a reading from the New Testament. Then the priest rises to read the Gospel and give us the homily, followed by the Nicene Creed and Prayers of the Faithful.

Then the Liturgy of the Eucharist begins with the Offertory, the Collect, then the Sanctus and consecration followed by the Great Amen, the Our Father and then Communion followed by Thanksgiving and dismissal.

There is no indication in the Mass that Jesus is being called to die again a bloody death, but that as we recall His life, death, and resurrection in the Word and Sacrament, we are united with Him as Perpetual Sacrifice in Glory in heaven.

Every Mass atones for all the sins of the world committed every hour in Jesus.

[Jim Dandy]

Christ Bearer,

First, a word about the priest you mentioned. I'm not implying that this is the case with him, but if one looks into the background of men who have left the priesthood, one may find that a behavior or ethical problem precipitated the departure. That certainly wasn't the first time he'd read Hebrews! Catholics are soaked in Scripture. Three years of attending Mass on Sunday and the entire Bible is covered -- except the parts like St. Paul leaving his cloak in Traos.

You cited Christ's words on the Cross: "It is finished." What does it mean? Your interpretation (and the interpretation I was taught as a Protestant) is that the redemption of the human race was finished, that there was nothing more for Christ to accomplish. But is that true? In Romans 4:24-25, St. Paul wrote: "... believe in the one who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was handed over for our transgressions and was raised for our justification. Jesus had to rise from the dead before His work was finished, according to the New Testament.

And it is never "finished." The Sacrifice is outside time, everlasting. It is not repeated; but ongoing. So those who stood at the foot of the Cross in the first century had no advantage over us in the 21st century. When I kneel at Mass, I am literally kneeling at Calvary. The Sacrifice is not repeated but re-presented, i.e., presented again. Although Christ is in heaven, He left the Mass and the Eucharist with His Church on earth so He could abide with us forever.

Jesus said to them: Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. John 6:53-56 RSV.

To understand the meaning of "It is finished," read The Fourth Cup:

http://zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg...hn/m4/4cp.html

[Third Day]

=Christ Bearer;8981951]In my first thread I asked about the veneration of Mary. Very helpful thoughts everyone contributed. I am still chewing on much of it. Thank you!

Here goes number 2 comment/question from a traditional protestant...

*The Mass being a fresh sacrifice of Christ is a blasphemy

.
IF the Mass were a "fresh" sacrifice of Christ it would be blasphemy

The book of Hebrews among other scriptures clearly states that Christ's sacrifice was "once for all".

Christ's sacrifice was once for all yet the apostle John in Revelation 5:6 saw Christ "standing as a Lamb that had been slain." This vision was 60 years after the crucufixion so why is Christ still seen as a slain Lamb?

In Revelation 13:8 the King James translation, which is directly from the Greek, says that Christ was the " Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." How is that possible when Christ was slain 2,000 years ago "once for all?"

These verses line up beautifully with Catholic teaching that the sacrifice of the Mass is a re-presentation of Christ's once for all sacrifice.
Notice also that according to scripture the first Christians had an altar. Why an altar? An altar is only for sacrifice and the early Christians re-presented Christ's sacrifice in the early Mass. Hebrews 13:10

How can Christ be sacrifice over and over again when he said on the cross "it is finished!" ?

If it was finished on the cross why did Christ have to be resurrected from the dead according to Paul?

"Romans 4:25 "Jesus our Lord, who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification."
Apparently it wasn't finished on the cross. The resurrection was also necessary. What was finsihed on the cross was the Old Covenant and the Passover.