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  #61  
Old Feb 24, '12, 4:35 pm
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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Originally Posted by IggyAntiochus View Post
No. I am justified if I believe that Christ's life, death, and resurrection has justified me.


  #62  
Old Feb 24, '12, 5:06 pm
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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Do the devils trust that the life, death, and resurrection of Christ have justified them?

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I edited this because you later explained why you posted the Hebrews reference.
  #63  
Old Feb 24, '12, 5:06 pm
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

I thought twice about just posting the verses with no explanation, sorry.

Based on the above it is clear that there is more to justification than just believing the right thing. SS. Paul and James were in agreement that anyone who sins gravely, willfully and deliberately after justification will lose it and that good works are necessary to preserve justification.
  #64  
Old Feb 24, '12, 5:08 pm
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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Based on the above it is clear that there is more to justification than just believing the right thing. SS. Paul and James were in agreement that anyone who sins gravely, willfully and deliberately after justification will lose it and that good works are necessary to preserve justification.
I agree that willful sin can nullify faith, and thereby, justification.

Neither of them teach that good works preserve justification. They do explicitly teach that good works are a necessary component of the justified Christian.
  #65  
Old Feb 24, '12, 5:10 pm
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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I agree that willful sin can nullify faith, and thereby, justification.

Neither of them teach that good works preserve justification. They do explicitly teach that good works are a necessary component of the justified Christian.
But that's exactly what James said: faith without works is dead. I don't think he can be any clearer than that.
  #66  
Old Feb 24, '12, 5:11 pm
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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But that's exactly what James said: faith without works is dead. I don't think he can be any clearer than that.
There is nothing in that about preserving justification. What it does mean, is that one who merely professes faith without the actions to back up his faith, doesn't really have faith to begin with. Just a profession.
  #67  
Old Feb 24, '12, 5:19 pm
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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There is nothing in that about preserving justification. What it does mean, is that one who merely professes faith without the actions to back up his faith, doesn't really have faith to begin with. Just a profession.
But look at Paul's admonition in Hebrews 10:26-29. That is addressed to a Christian who is already justified.
  #68  
Old Feb 24, '12, 5:19 pm
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

[quote=Cat Herder;9001818]



I will repost my response to the James citation, because you and I both posted at exactly the same time. So, you may not have seen it.

Do the devils trust that the life, death, and resurrection of Christ alone justifies them?

Faith is not synonymous with belief.
  #69  
Old Feb 24, '12, 5:21 pm
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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But look at Paul's admonition in Hebrews 10:26-29. That is addressed to a Christian who is already justified.
I do not disagree that repeated, willful sin can cause a loss of justification. I do not affirm "once saved always saved."
  #70  
Old Feb 24, '12, 5:51 pm
grandfather grandfather is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

[quote=IggyAntiochus;9001207][
Quote:
No. I am justified if I believe that Christ's life, death, and resurrection has justified me.
That comes from sola fide. What about repent and be saved? Don't you think repentance is required? Jesus told His apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel of repentance for forgiveness of sins. You can't be justified unless your sins are forgiven. Your sins can not be forgiven unless you repent. Repentance is something you must do, a work. It is done by grace, but nevertheless you do it. It is kind of like scripture. It was written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Men wrote it. Our salvation is like that. We are saved by God's grace alone, but that grace causes us to act, to repent.

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Yes. Other than that our works are not meritorious for our justification. Will they be rewarded? Yes.
If our works are inspired by God and empowered by God then they are meritorious. We are acting with God. One way to look at it is God is over there, or up in heaven. I am here or on earth. God does things for the benefit of mankind and individual souls. Another way is God dwells in men and acts in them. Their acts are His acts. All who are in Christ are part of His body and they are one in Him, joined to Him and one another. As the head He causes His body to act. The members of His body act freely though. They are inspired to act, but not forced or compelled.

If a preacher gives a sermon inspired by God and a man in the congregation hears it and comes to faith listening to the preacher's words, God saves the man, but the preacher who allowed God to speak through him saves the man also. Did Saint John write the gospel account, or is the account from the Holy Spirit? If you are saved by grace you still must respond to the grace that saves you. Your action is necessary.


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I don't disagree. But I do disagree that the word Church necessarily only refers to the hierarchy of it.
The Church is all the baptized, but Jesus made His promises to His apostles. He told Peter to feed His sheep. He gave them the power of binding and loosing sins. He charged them with going to the nations with His gospel. There were other followers of Jesus at the time. He commissioned only certain ones. Later He called Paul to a unique ministry. Paul had the authority of an apostle, different from the run of the mill Christian. Paul wrote his epistles in this ordained authority as part of the hierarchy, as did James, John and Peter. Why would you think anything would be different today?
  #71  
Old Feb 24, '12, 5:59 pm
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

[quote=grandfather;9002062]
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggyAntiochus View Post
[

That comes from sola fide. What about repent and be saved? Don't you think repentance is required?
Repentance is a response of faith.

Quote:
Jesus told His apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel of repentance for forgiveness of sins. You can't be justified unless your sins are forgiven. Your sins can not be forgiven unless you repent. Repentance is something you must do, a work. It is done by grace, but nevertheless you do it. It is kind of like scripture. It was written by men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Men wrote it. Our salvation is like that. We are saved by God's grace alone, but that grace causes us to act, to repent.
I agree that grace causes us to repent. Our repentance is not the basis of our forgiveness, however. The sole ground of our forgiveness is God's mercy in Christ, who bore our sins. Our sins are remitted because He has suffered in our place for the punishment of those sins. 2 Cor 5:21.

Quote:
If our works are inspired by God and empowered by God then they are meritorious. We are acting with God. One way to look at it is God is over there, or up in heaven. I am here or on earth. God does things for the benefit of mankind and individual souls. Another way is God dwells in men and acts in them. Their acts are His acts. All who are in Christ are part of His body and they are one in Him, joined to Him and one another. As the head He causes His body to act. The members of His body act freely though. They are inspired to act, but not forced or compelled.
I do not dispute that our good works will be rewarded by God. Scripture plainly teaches this, and no Protestant tradition I know of denies it (I could be wrong in that).

Quote:
The Church is all the baptized, but Jesus made His promises to His apostles. He told Peter to feed His sheep. He gave them the power of binding and loosing sins. He charged them with going to the nations with His gospel. There were other followers of Jesus at the time. He commissioned only certain ones. Later He called Paul to a unique ministry. Paul had the authority of an apostle, different from the run of the mill Christian. Paul wrote his epistles in this ordained authority as part of the hierarchy, as did James, John and Peter. Why would you think anything would be different today?
Pastors today do not possess the same authority as the apostles, as the apostolic office has ceased. Revelation has ceased. Now, that is not to deny that there is an office of the holy ministry within the church. But to see that hierarchy as being the sole recipient of the word "church" whenever it is used in the NT, is to read presupposition into the text where it is not warranted.
  #72  
Old Feb 24, '12, 6:40 pm
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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I do not disagree that repeated, willful sin can cause a loss of justification. I do not affirm "once saved always saved."
But the sin which Paul holds out as an example in Hebrews 10:25-29 is forsaking the assembly--a failure to do a good work, namely attending the Sacred Synaxis (aka the Mass). It is a failure to do a good work.
  #73  
Old Feb 24, '12, 6:46 pm
Cat Herder Cat Herder is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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Pastors today do not possess the same authority as the apostles, as the apostolic office has ceased. Revelation has ceased. Now, that is not to deny that there is an office of the holy ministry within the church. But to see that hierarchy as being the sole recipient of the word "church" whenever it is used in the NT, is to read presupposition into the text where it is not warranted.
No, it is simply to trust that Jesus is not a failure. You are the one presupposing the end of apostolic authority. Nowhere do the Scriptures say such a thing.

I'm going to refer you again to the fact that for over a thousand years the only church was the Catholic Church. If what the Church was teaching was wrong then no one was justified and Jesus failed to do the will of God that all men have knowledge of the truth in order to be saved. (1Tim 2:3-4)

Jesus IS God, so that scenario is absolutely impossible, which is why the Catholic Church is infallible.

Calvin realized that if Jesus is not a failure then the Church was telling the truth and there was nothing to reform, so Calvin asserted that Jesus only died for the sins of certain special people (the billions who lived during the Catholic only millennium not being among them in his mind). And ever since then, non-Catholics have wanted to be special instead of being Christian.
  #74  
Old Feb 24, '12, 7:15 pm
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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But the sin which Paul holds out as an example in Hebrews 10:25-29 is forsaking the assembly--a failure to do a good work, namely attending the Sacred Synaxis (aka the Mass). It is a failure to do a good work.
Where does Paul threaten damnation for this? Verse 25 is Paul's exhortation to continue to meet in an assembly, because of the Day drawing near. Verses 26-29 warn against deliberate sinning. How is that connected to his request not to forsake meeting? His warnings have to do with denying Christ.
  #75  
Old Feb 24, '12, 7:18 pm
Jaboshua Jaboshua is offline
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Default Re: Ideas for explaining the 'visible church' to non-Catholics?

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Would it be okay for me to say that the Church has both a body and a soul - the body is visible, and the soul may include the "invisible church": those who do not subscribe to Catholic doctrine but are nevertheless a part of it? I'm using the lighthouse or "city on a hill" reference, grandfather, thanks for the suggestion.
You cannot include non-Catholics into the body. They, from what I know, do not believe what Catholics are told is essential for salvation (many things), therefore they are not really "saved" or "born again". If I am wrong please point it out, I thirst for truth.
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