Emptying out the holy water stoups in Lent...

[Leon Bloy]

Centurian Guard, the reason I said "sacristan" was because I thought it might be more prudent to approach a fellow lay person (especially if they are in the same situation you were, of not agreeing with the practice) who would then be able to say "hey Father, remember when you said to empty out the fonts? Well, some person came up to me after mass yesterday and said that's not in keeping with the Church's regulations/practice/etc...." That could perhaps remove the "confrontational" issue from the table... and if it is the sacristan himself doing it, it would save the priest another battle (I know many priests who have these troubles with lay "ministers")...

[Brendan]

Several years ago, our previous archbishop, Cardinal Maida, send a letter to all the parishes in the archdiocese forbidding the emptying the holy water stoups during Lent.

The letter was particularly timely, as I was having an ongoing email discussion with the parish DRE about it.

Our current archbishop, +Vigneron, has wisely continued the prohibition

[christofirst]

Update: Today is Ash Wednesday, and the holy water was still there by the doors at my home parish! Not sure yet about my innovative neighboring parish. Also, there was a big crowd for 6:30 a.m. Mass, almost like a Sunday. We're off to a good start.

[thomasf]

The Holy Water was gone at our Parish on Ash Wednesday. Made me mad.


I sent the priests and deacon an email about this with the link to fr z's blog. Hopefully it doesn't get me in trouble.

[centurionguard]

Originally Posted by Leon Bloy

Centurian Guard, the reason I said "sacristan" was because I thought it might be more prudent to approach a fellow lay person (especially if they are in the same situation you were, of not agreeing with the practice) who would then be able to say "hey Father, remember when you said to empty out the fonts? Well, some person came up to me after mass yesterday and said that's not in keeping with the Church's regulations/practice/etc...." That could perhaps remove the "confrontational" issue from the table... and if it is the sacristan himself doing it, it would save the priest another battle (I know many priests who have these troubles with lay "ministers")...

Why blame the sacristan specifically?
It is the sacristan's duty to obediently serve the interests of the priest.

When I was sacristan for almost ten years I knew my duties and never took it upon myself to carry out tasks without the expressed wishes of my parish priest without informing him. When I was told to fill the fonts and stoups with sand during one season of Lent it wasn't my position to argue with the priest I was serving. Any different sentiments I felt aside about it were irrelevant. My job was strictly one of obedience, humility, and loyalty to my priest.

[Leon Bloy]

Originally Posted by centurionguard

Why blame the sacristan specifically?
It is the sacristan's duty to obediently serve the interests of the priest.

When I was sacristan for almost ten years I knew my duties and never took it upon myself to carry out tasks without the expressed wishes of my parish priest without informing him. When I was told to fill the fonts and stoups with sand during one season of Lent it wasn't my position to argue with the priest I was serving. Any different sentiments I felt aside about it were irrelevant. My job was strictly one of obedience, humility, and loyalty to my priest.

I thought I just explained that in the post you quoted! I never blamed the sacristan at all!

[Leon Bloy]

Originally Posted by centurionguard

My job was strictly one of obedience, humility, and loyalty to my priest.

And if the priest told you to pour the precious blood down the drain - and I do not mean the sacrarium.... ?

[mfrances]

Originally Posted by YoungTradCath

As far as I know, that is the traditional and proper name, font.

The old/traditional name for a holy water font is stoup.

From the Middle Ages, fonts called "stoups" consisted of a small niche somewhat resembling a piscina and containing a stone basin partly sunk in the wall, the niche being either under the porch or inside, but always near the entrance to the church.

[centurionguard]

Originally Posted by Leon Bloy

And if the priest told you to pour the precious blood down the drain - and I do not mean the sacrarium.... ?

Well; don't you think there's a far cry of being asked to share the guilt of filling the fonts and stoups with sand for Lent at request of your parish priest and doing what you propose in your question above?

However; if you should need an answer, the answer is definitively NO! to either the sewer drain or the sacrarium. But I suspect you already knew that.

Maybe I can propose a question to you. Would you tell your priest off by reprimanding him for asking you as sacristan to remove the Holy Water from to stoups and fonts and replace them with sand?

[Leon Bloy]

Centurion, from the beginning, I never said that I assumed it was the fault of the sacristan or the priest. I said one might approach the sacristan about it. That does not mean that I said I thought the sacristan came up with the idea on his own! I thought I made that completely clear. I guess not.

[Leon Bloy]

Originally Posted by centurionguard

Maybe I can propose a question to you. Would you tell your priest off by reprimanding him for asking you as sacristan to remove the Holy Water from to stoups and fonts and replace them with sand?

I would start by saying, "Um, Father, I read that the Congregation for Divine Worship in Rome said that we should not remove the holy water from the fonts in Lent - not until Holy Thursday, that is... if you would like, I could show you the letter. I realize that many parishes have made the practice of removing it during all of Lent, so maybe you were not aware..." Depending on his reaction, I would then decide what to do next, relying on all the prudential resources I may or may not have.

Also, come on. "Telling off" and "reprimanding" are a far cry away from other possibilities, such as "inquiring further," or "asking if I can share some information I happened to come across recently."

I really think you are being pretty unfair to me. Just read what I wrote in the first place.

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by centurionguard

Why blame the sacristan specifically?
It is the sacristan's duty to obediently serve the interests of the priest.

When I was sacristan for almost ten years I knew my duties and never took it upon myself to carry out tasks without the expressed wishes of my parish priest without informing him. When I was told to fill the fonts and stoups with sand during one season of Lent it wasn't my position to argue with the priest I was serving. Any different sentiments I felt aside about it were irrelevant. My job was strictly one of obedience, humility, and loyalty to my priest.

Technically, it is not.

Aquinas defined the virtue of obedience to be that of conforming one's will to the one in authority.

Since the Church has ruled against the emptying of the Holy Water fonts during Lent, the priest, by definition, has no authority to ask you do that.

The virtue of obedience does not, and cannot, entail following instructions that go against the one who has the actual authority in the matter.

A priest cannot legitmately order an employee or minister to do an act that the Church has prohibited.

[centurionguard]

Originally Posted by Brendan

Technically, it is not.

Aquinas defined the virtue of obedience to be that of conforming one's will to the one in authority.

Since the Church has ruled against the emptying of the Holy Water fonts during Lent, the priest, by definition, has no authority to ask you do that.

The virtue of obedience does not, and cannot, entail following instructions that go against the one who has the actual authority in the matter.

A priest cannot legitmately order an employee or minister to do an act that the Church has prohibited.

I would agree with you in every way. However; it doesn't change the fact that the priest misused his authority and position having me to carry out his directions.

This happened many years ago. Today I would have challenged a priest with such intentions in a tactful respectful way. If such risk in challenging him warranted me getting fired from my position than so be it. It easy to sit back to judge and access this scenario from an outside vantage point; especially when another Catholic "is not" the sacristan caught in the middle of the situation with a priest you respect, requesting you to carry out his wishes on this matter. And sometimes it not always easy to say no to the priest.

[Anna Claire]

http://www.dsj.org/being-catholic/wo...-during-lent-0

[Splagchnizomai]

If your parish is removing holy water, ask them to remove other sacramentals too. Get rid of the beads in rosaries, for example.

I'm glad our parish stopped doing this a couple of years ago.