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  #1  
Old Feb 20, '12, 3:20 pm
alias235 alias235 is offline
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Default Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

A guy on another forum brought this up. What can be said to defend Christianity for the following?

"The major Christian flaw is that they believe that "God sacrificed his son for our sins" but if he knew that upon his son's death he would instantly return to Heaven and inherit a kingdom on Earth he didn't sacrifice anything. It's like sending your child to school knowing that he would learn and come home safely to you at the end of the day to inherit a corporate empire and consider that a sacrifice. Sacrifice means that you give up something important to you with the knowledge that you would not get it back - that is true sacrifice. He did not sacrifice anything. Moreover I think it is immoral to forgive everything anybody has ever done just because they worship a man who was crucified in some meaningless act of "sacrifice" whether it was genuine or not."
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  #2  
Old Feb 20, '12, 3:27 pm
Della Della is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alias235 View Post
A guy on another forum brought this up. What can be said to defend Christianity for the following?

"The major Christian flaw is that they believe that "God sacrificed his son for our sins" but if he knew that upon his son's death he would instantly return to Heaven and inherit a kingdom on Earth he didn't sacrifice anything. It's like sending your child to school knowing that he would learn and come home safely to you at the end of the day to inherit a corporate empire and consider that a sacrifice. Sacrifice means that you give up something important to you with the knowledge that you would not get it back - that is true sacrifice. He did not sacrifice anything. Moreover I think it is immoral to forgive everything anybody has ever done just because they worship a man who was crucified in some meaningless act of "sacrifice" whether it was genuine or not."
In other words, he set up a strawman argument and then tears it down. Not too hard to do.

But seriously, why does he get to define what is means to sacrifice? And why does he think that Jesus' resurrection was only for him and not also redemptive? These are the questions his objections do not answer, but which must be answered before anything more can be said.

He is accusing God of selfishness and being disengenuous. As if Jesus' death on the cross meant nothing to the Father and was only a ploy. I ask you, who would undergo such pain and torture for the fun of it? This is just plain silly. This person is trying to find excuses for his unbelief, but they don't fly in the light of reason or common sense.
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  #3  
Old Feb 20, '12, 4:45 pm
michaelmas michaelmas is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alias235 View Post
A guy on another forum brought this up. What can be said to defend Christianity for the following?

"The major Christian flaw is that they believe that "God sacrificed his son for our sins" but if he knew that upon his son's death he would instantly return to Heaven and inherit a kingdom on Earth he didn't sacrifice anything. It's like sending your child to school knowing that he would learn and come home safely to you at the end of the day to inherit a corporate empire and consider that a sacrifice. Sacrifice means that you give up something important to you with the knowledge that you would not get it back - that is true sacrifice. He did not sacrifice anything. Moreover I think it is immoral to forgive everything anybody has ever done just because they worship a man who was crucified in some meaningless act of "sacrifice" whether it was genuine or not."

Excellent 2nd post..

I would add that the questioner isn't familiar with the meaning of a covenant with a people/person.
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  #4  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:00 pm
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runningdude runningdude is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alias235 View Post
A guy on another forum brought this up. What can be said to defend Christianity for the following?

"The major Christian flaw is that they believe that "God sacrificed his son for our sins" but if he knew that upon his son's death he would instantly return to Heaven and inherit a kingdom on Earth he didn't sacrifice anything. It's like sending your child to school knowing that he would learn and come home safely to you at the end of the day to inherit a corporate empire and consider that a sacrifice. Sacrifice means that you give up something important to you with the knowledge that you would not get it back - that is true sacrifice. He did not sacrifice anything. Moreover I think it is immoral to forgive everything anybody has ever done just because they worship a man who was crucified in some meaningless act of "sacrifice" whether it was genuine or not."
God the Son became human. This means he inherited all our hopes and dreams for a long, comfortable life. This also means He gave up all the glory of divinity to experience the human condition for 33ish years.

Instead of a long happy life, He knew He was going to experience a slow, painful death. He was going to experience be abandoned and betrayed by His human friends. He sacrificed never knowing pain to come down from Heaven and empty Himself and expose Himself to pain and suffering all for love of man.
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  #5  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:06 pm
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onemangang onemangang is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

The guy seems to think that the sacrifice lacked any value, perhaps you can have him explain value. Is there value without God?
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  #6  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:11 pm
MPat MPat is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alias235 View Post
A guy on another forum brought this up. What can be said to defend Christianity for the following?

"The major Christian flaw is that they believe that "God sacrificed his son for our sins" but if he knew that upon his son's death he would instantly return to Heaven and inherit a kingdom on Earth he didn't sacrifice anything. It's like sending your child to school knowing that he would learn and come home safely to you at the end of the day to inherit a corporate empire and consider that a sacrifice. Sacrifice means that you give up something important to you with the knowledge that you would not get it back - that is true sacrifice. He did not sacrifice anything. Moreover I think it is immoral to forgive everything anybody has ever done just because they worship a man who was crucified in some meaningless act of "sacrifice" whether it was genuine or not."
Well, if to him "Sacrifice means that you give up something important to you with the knowledge that you would not get it back", then, for example, he shouldn't object to lending everything he has to some stranger, if that stranger promises to give it back (without interest) after, let's say, ten years... Unless, of course, he will count the use of some item as "something important" - but that would end up damaging his argument.

Or he could learn to play chess - in the process he would end up learning about sacrifices a little more...
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  #7  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:14 pm
septimine septimine is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

Maybe look into the science of crucifixion. I saw something on that around easter -- if that's not a sacrifice, I don't know what is.
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  #8  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:34 pm
surritter surritter is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

Runningdude nailed it ... since God became human, he could experience human suffering. So of course that is a sacrifice. Perhaps the guy disputing this denies the dual nature of Jesus?
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  #9  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:47 pm
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by alias235 View Post
Sacrifice means that you give up something important to you with the knowledge that you would not get it back - that is true sacrifice.
The flaw is not with Christianity but with made up definitions of what sacrifice is.

A simple glance at the dictionary proves the argument false.


-Tim-
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  #10  
Old Feb 20, '12, 5:47 pm
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ByzCathCantor ByzCathCantor is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by surritter View Post
Runningdude nailed it ... since God became human, he could experience human suffering. So of course that is a sacrifice. Perhaps the guy disputing this denies the dual nature of Jesus?
Yes, the nails were hit on the head, as they pierced His precious hands and feet.

Interestingly, the debater actually proves that Jesus was the Son of God by even suggesting that God's sacrifice was somehow imperfect.

The debater is perhaps disputing the Triune God more that he may be disputing the dual nature of Christ. He suggests that God the Father offered an imperfect sacrifice. The argument is flawed in that God the Son offered the Perfect Sacrifice to the Father. The Father could not offer sacrifice to Himself. That is illogical from the outset.
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  #11  
Old Feb 20, '12, 6:27 pm
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Polycarp1 Polycarp1 is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

Jesus had a human nature and a divine nature. He suffered the agony, the passion, the betrayal of his disciples and crucification as a human. Yes as God he could have opted out but He knew that it was necessary to suffer death so that we could have a chance at eternal life. He offerred Himself to take our place in the suffering we as mankind deserved. That is a sacrifice!
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  #12  
Old Feb 20, '12, 7:04 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is online now
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ByzCathCantor View Post
Yes, the nails were hit on the head, as they pierced His precious hands and feet.

Interestingly, the debater actually proves that Jesus was the Son of God by even suggesting that God's sacrifice was somehow imperfect.

The debater is perhaps disputing the Triune God more that he may be disputing the dual nature of Christ. He suggests that God the Father offered an imperfect sacrifice. The argument is flawed in that God the Son offered the Perfect Sacrifice to the Father. The Father could not offer sacrifice to Himself. That is illogical from the outset.
And just when I thought I was finally grasping the personhood essence of the Trinity! Is what you're stating that G-d sacrificed Himself to G-d, or did the emptied human nature of Jesus sacrifice Himself to His divine nature, which is co-equal to that of the Father? Must one say instead that G-d the Son sacrificed Himself to G-d the Father to clarify the distinct but non-separate nature of G-d? I understand the flame analogy of the Trinity, but the exact meaning of the sacrifice, Who to Whom, is still not clear to me.
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  #13  
Old Feb 20, '12, 8:31 pm
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ByzCathCantor ByzCathCantor is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
And just when I thought I was finally grasping the personhood essence of the Trinity! Is what you're stating that G-d sacrificed Himself to G-d, or did the emptied human nature of Jesus sacrifice Himself to His divine nature, which is co-equal to that of the Father? Must one say instead that G-d the Son sacrificed Himself to G-d the Father to clarify the distinct but non-separate nature of G-d? I understand the flame analogy of the Trinity, but the exact meaning of the sacrifice, Who to Whom, is still not clear to me.
Most of my Jewish friends would simply shrug and say "we're still waiting [for Mashiah]" rather than ponder such questions. Your curiousity is notable.

This must be understood in relation to the belief in the two natures of Jesus - human and divine.

The flame analogy is still a good one for a visual conception of the Holy Trinity and the relation of the Three Persons, but is most commonly used by Catholic and Orthodox Christians in discussing (debating) the meaning of the filioque in the Creed.

Puting aside Christian considerations, would it seem logical from the Jewish perspective that G-d would offer sacrifice to Himself? We believe that G-d accepted the Perfect Sacrifice of the Passion (suffering and death) of His only-begotten Son in atonement for the sins of all mankind. Christ's divinity is then fully revealed through His resurrection and ascension into Heaven.
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  #14  
Old Feb 21, '12, 8:36 am
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promethius promethius is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alias235 View Post
A guy on another forum brought this up. What can be said to defend Christianity for the following?

"The major Christian flaw is that they believe that "God sacrificed his son for our sins" but if he knew that upon his son's death he would instantly return to Heaven and inherit a kingdom on Earth he didn't sacrifice anything. It's like sending your child to school knowing that he would learn and come home safely to you at the end of the day to inherit a corporate empire and consider that a sacrifice. Sacrifice means that you give up something important to you with the knowledge that you would not get it back - that is true sacrifice. He did not sacrifice anything. Moreover I think it is immoral to forgive everything anybody has ever done just because they worship a man who was crucified in some meaningless act of "sacrifice" whether it was genuine or not."
Um... the resurrection wasn't Jesus UNdying... Jesus died, and then came back and passed THROUGH death. That is a sacrifice. This guy is trying to make death out to be no different than spending time in a classroom to learn something and develop new skills... I'm sure any of the martyrs could point out that death is not exactly an easy ordeal...
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  #15  
Old Feb 21, '12, 9:47 am
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by promethius View Post
Um... the resurrection wasn't Jesus UNdying... Jesus died, and then came back and passed THROUGH death. That is a sacrifice. This guy is trying to make death out to be no different than spending time in a classroom to learn something and develop new skills... I'm sure any of the martyrs could point out that death is not exactly an easy ordeal...
This is why I laughted at the premise in the original post.

It makes light of being whipped and beaten until your skin is ripped off, and then being nailed to a tree and left to hang there suffocating.

We can't even get a toothache without demanding narcotics to ease the pain or bump our elbow without cursing. Few, if any of us, would do such things willingly even if there was something in it for us. But Christ did infinitely more, suffered infinitely more, and did so not so that he would gain anything, but for the benefit of a bunch of ungrateful brats like us.

The premise in the OP makes crucifixion out to be some kind of minor inconvenience.


-Tim-
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