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  #16  
Old Feb 21, '12, 4:10 pm
John7 John7 is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
And just when I thought I was finally grasping the personhood essence of the Trinity! Is what you're stating that G-d sacrificed Himself to G-d, or did the emptied human nature of Jesus sacrifice Himself to His divine nature, which is co-equal to that of the Father? Must one say instead that G-d the Son sacrificed Himself to G-d the Father to clarify the distinct but non-separate nature of G-d? I understand the flame analogy of the Trinity, but the exact meaning of the sacrifice, Who to Whom, is still not clear to me.
the underlined in 14 basically answers. All three persons of Trinity involved.
Hebrews 9:11-14

But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ (the Son), who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God (the Father), purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
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  #17  
Old Feb 21, '12, 5:12 pm
57Bill 57Bill is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

I believe it was not entirely as much as the physical pain and torture. It's quite possible that some Saints and martyrs suffered as much or more in a physical reality/pain/torture/death.

It was knowing that by taking on human form He would be separated from His Father for the first time EVER.

"He decended into Hell"...I believe that to mean the abscence of God. Jesus became the perfect sacrifice to atone for all our sins. To be with God is to be rightous. Perfection can only exist in God's presence. Jesus' perfect sacrifice was for us to be with God.
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  #18  
Old Feb 22, '12, 5:42 am
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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"He decended into Hell"....
I give shivers whenever I read this line in the Apostles Creed. So profound.
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  #19  
Old Feb 22, '12, 8:59 am
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promethius promethius is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by 57Bill View Post
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

I believe it was not entirely as much as the physical pain and torture. It's quite possible that some Saints and martyrs suffered as much or more in a physical reality/pain/torture/death.

It was knowing that by taking on human form He would be separated from His Father for the first time EVER.

"He decended into Hell"...I believe that to mean the abscence of God. Jesus became the perfect sacrifice to atone for all our sins. To be with God is to be rightous. Perfection can only exist in God's presence. Jesus' perfect sacrifice was for us to be with God.
Just to clarify, Christ WAS God, and thus there was never TRUE separation between Christ and God, no REAL absense of God. It is important not to confuse the hyperbolic speech at the beginning of Psalm 22 (the one that begins with "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?") with an objective reality being stated... the context of verse psalm 22 is that God NEVER forsakes the speaker, but rather that in the darkest of hours the Glory of God is given the most prominant chance to shine forth. Jesus was merely referencing a prophecy which was fulfilled that day, making a direct reference to the scribes so that they would finally realize the magnitude of what was occuring right before them.

We are discussing just this statement in THIS thread...
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  #20  
Old Feb 22, '12, 3:43 pm
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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A guy on another forum brought this up. What can be said to defend Christianity for the following?

"The major Christian flaw is that they believe that "God sacrificed his son for our sins" but if he knew that upon his son's death he would instantly return to Heaven and inherit a kingdom on Earth he didn't sacrifice anything. It's like sending your child to school knowing that he would learn and come home safely to you at the end of the day to inherit a corporate empire and consider that a sacrifice. Sacrifice means that you give up something important to you with the knowledge that you would not get it back - that is true sacrifice. He did not sacrifice anything. Moreover I think it is immoral to forgive everything anybody has ever done just because they worship a man who was crucified in some meaningless act of "sacrifice" whether it was genuine or not."
When Adam and Eve sinned they committed an infinite offence against God and the only way this infinite offence could be paid is if there was a payment of equal value and merit. Mankind being finite could not pay for such an offence and so we had incurred a debt that we could not get out of. Christ; however, could make this payment and so out of love, He did just that, knowing darn well we would not be able to pay Him back and that even despite His generosity there would still be a large number of ungrateful people.

Yeah that sounds like a huge sacrifice to me.
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  #21  
Old Feb 22, '12, 5:17 pm
Wellok Wellok is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by Credo in Deum View Post
When Adam and Eve sinned they committed an infinite offence against God and the only way this infinite offence could be paid is if there was a payment of equal value and merit. Mankind being finite could not pay for such an offence and so we had incurred a debt that we could not get out of. Christ; however, could make this payment and so out of love, He did just that, knowing darn well we would not be able to pay Him back and that even despite His generosity there would still be a large number of ungrateful people.

Yeah that sounds like a huge sacrifice to me.
If God is merciful why didn't He just forgive us. He sacrificed himself to Himself so It was He that did the sacrifice and the forgiving. Why not just forgive?
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  #22  
Old Feb 22, '12, 7:26 pm
surritter surritter is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

Well, it's true that God can do anything .... he could snap His fingers and make everything perfect for us.
But also consider that Jesus was offering Himself as an example for us to follow. And to show us how much he loves us.
So it was certainly an atonement, but there were other significant reasons too. Not because of God's made-up rules, but because of our own shortcomings.
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  #23  
Old Feb 22, '12, 7:49 pm
Wellok Wellok is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by surritter View Post
Well, it's true that God can do anything .... he could snap His fingers and make everything perfect for us.
But also consider that Jesus was offering Himself as an example for us to follow. And to show us how much he loves us.
So it was certainly an atonement, but there were other significant reasons too. Not because of God's made-up rules, but because of our own shortcomings.
That may be the case, God also gave the whole law of the O.T. to guide our behavior but regardless the original post was about the sacrifice. Being an example doesn't explain the sacrifice.
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  #24  
Old Feb 22, '12, 9:34 pm
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promethius promethius is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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If God is merciful why didn't He just forgive us. He sacrificed himself to Himself so It was He that did the sacrifice and the forgiving. Why not just forgive?
The answer is a question: How can God be perfectly just and perfectly merciful... The way you posit that god could have just snapped His fingers and given forgiveness only accounts for perfect mercy... no justice. The Passion of Christ was therefore necessary to satisfy the nature of God AND restore mankind at the same time.
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  #25  
Old Feb 22, '12, 9:47 pm
Wellok Wellok is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by promethius View Post
The answer is a question: How can God be perfectly just and perfectly merciful... The way you posit that god could have just snapped His fingers and given forgiveness only accounts for perfect mercy... no justice. The Passion of Christ was therefore necessary to satisfy the nature of God AND restore mankind at the same time.
It doesn't seem just - it cost us nothing.
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  #26  
Old Feb 23, '12, 8:41 am
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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If God is merciful why didn't He just forgive us. He sacrificed himself to Himself so It was He that did the sacrifice and the forgiving. Why not just forgive?
Because God wanted to show His Love for us.
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  #27  
Old Feb 23, '12, 8:59 am
Wellok Wellok is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by Credo in Deum View Post
Because God wanted to show His Love for us.
It still doesn't address the sacrifice.

If I am standing by a bonfire and hand my five year old son a hundred dollar bill and say "take care of this son, I love you." and He throws the bill into the fire. I am going to be angry, offended etc.

So after we leave I tell him he needs to pay me back. I know he can't pay me back and he knows he can't pay me back. So I tell him "Ok here is a hundred dollar bill you can pay me back with."

Nothing happened. There was no sacrifice, I'm paying back myself. At best it's a slight of hand to keep the kid from feeling to bad about himself.

Maybe that's all Jesus was trying to say "Lighten Up, I got this"
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  #28  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:33 am
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by Wellok View Post
Maybe that's all Jesus was trying to say "Lighten Up, I got this"
God is paying for a sins He did not commit. It would be like the child committing a horrible crime and the father stepping in to do the hard time because He loves His son. Regardless of the fact the father knows he will be released in a couple years itís still a sacrifice since the father paid the penalty for a crime he did not commit. Thatís not a slight of hand thatís a sacrifice.
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  #29  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:57 am
Wellok Wellok is offline
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by Credo in Deum View Post
God is paying for a sins He did not commit. It would be like the child committing a horrible crime and the father stepping in to do the hard time because He loves His son. Regardless of the fact the father knows he will be released in a couple years itís still a sacrifice since the father paid the penalty for a crime he did not commit. Thatís not a slight of hand thatís a sacrifice.
God is Jesus, Jesus is God. He is paying Himself. He is the judge, jury and jailer and jailed. Nothing is exchanged. God is paid with God's Blood. It's like me paying myself back with my own money.
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  #30  
Old Feb 23, '12, 10:00 am
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Default Re: Christ's sacrifice not really a sacrifice?

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Originally Posted by Wellok View Post
God is Jesus, Jesus is God. He is paying Himself. He is the judge, jury and jailer and jailed. Nothing is exchanged. God is paid with God's Blood. It's like me paying myself back with my own money.
Yet youíre missing the point that youíre paying yourself back for a debt you didnít incur. Doing something even though you do not have to, for the sake of someone elseís wellbeing, is a sacrifice.

Have you looked up the definition of sacrifice in the dictionary? If not I would suggest you do so.
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