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  #61  
Old Feb 25, '12, 9:46 pm
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

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Originally Posted by maurin View Post
I isn't merely resoration of the Mass that is at issue, jwinch. If that were the case, the issues were resolved with His Holiness's mou proprio of 2009, was it?

No, tthe issues revolve around the Faith the Traditional Mass trumpets forth. These issues are all about doctrine.

We all await his Holiness's response to the Doctrinal Talks, which is expected to come this summer.
I disagree. Also, the post I was replying to specifically stated "liturgy". Besides, are you suggesting that those groups mentioned are not teaching faithful doctrine?
  #62  
Old Feb 26, '12, 12:02 am
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Filii Dei Filii Dei is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

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Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
We have many groups now working towards exactly that and it seems as if more of them are cropping up all the time (FSSP, ICKSP, CRNJ, CRSJC, etc.). While I certainly hope for the SSPX to return to the fold, I cannot help but believe that things are already moving towards a restoration of traditional liturgy.

Thoughts?

Please don't get me wrong. I absolutely want to see a normalization of things between SSPX and the Holy See.


Peace,
Much agreed! I don't believe you are wrong at all. Such societies like the FSSP are indeed a blessing for the Church. However, the return of the SSPX would mark a milestone in the history of traditionalist movement, when we are all finally on the same page, working together towards a renewal of liturgy and tradition, rather than bickering amongst ourselves over who has the moral high ground and imagining ourselves above the Magisterium. We mustn't let the sin of pride consume our hearts.

I have faith that God will guide his servant Pope Benedict XVI in eventually making the right decision to resolve this canonical crisis so that we can unite to tackle the liturgical crisis, ad utilitatem quoque nostram, totiusque ecclesiae suae sanctae.
  #63  
Old Feb 26, '12, 12:12 am
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

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Originally Posted by Filii Dei View Post
Much agreed! I don't believe you are wrong at all. Such societies like the FSSP are indeed a blessing for the Church. However, the return of the SSPX would mark a milestone in the history of traditionalist movement, when we are all finally on the same page, working together towards a renewal of liturgy and tradition, rather than bickering amongst ourselves over who has the moral high ground and imagining ourselves above the Magisterium. We mustn't let the sin of pride consume our hearts.

I have faith that God will guide his servant Pope Benedict XVI in eventually making the right decision to resolve this canonical crisis so that we can unite to tackle the liturgical crisis, ad utilitatem quoque nostram, totiusque ecclesiae suae sanctae.
Agreed.


Peace,
  #64  
Old Feb 26, '12, 6:20 am
maurin maurin is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

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Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
I disagree. Also, the post I was replying to specifically stated "liturgy". Besides, are you suggesting that those groups mentioned are not teaching faithful doctrine?
Not at all. However those groups you mentioned certainly do owe their existence to the Society. And furthermore, the subject of the thread is the Society. The issues the Society has with the new order is not merely the Mass. It is Doctrine. You are free to disagree, but that doesn't change the fact.

Because I go almost exclusively to the Society, support the Society, agree with the Society, probably shouldn't automatically make me the enemy.
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  #65  
Old Feb 26, '12, 9:29 am
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

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Originally Posted by maurin View Post
Not at all.
Interesting, since at least of those groups also offers the OF of the Mass.
Quote:
However those groups you mentioned certainly do owe their existence to the Society.
Perhaps. I believe it likely we would have seen some of them anyway. There is a general trend of looking to tradition in the Church right now with several groups performing older rites of the Mass. The Dominican, Sarum, Ambrosian, etc. are all examples. Giving SSPX credit for all of that seems a bit of a stretch at best.
Quote:
And furthermore, the subject of the thread is the Society.
Yes it is. Specially, leaving it.
Quote:
The issues the Society has with the new order is not merely the Mass. It is Doctrine. You are free to disagree, but that doesn't change the fact.
I agree that many within the SSPX believe there are doctrinal issues. However, your statement above that the groups I mentioned are in fact teaching correct doctrine calls into question whether those perceived issues actually exist. If FSSP, ICKSP, CRNJ, CRSJC, etc. are in fact teaching faithful doctrine as you suggested, and they are in communion with the Holy See, then that argument starts to appear pretty thin.
Quote:
Because I go almost exclusively to the Society, support the Society, agree with the Society, probably shouldn't automatically make me the enemy.
It doesn't. However, if you have an option for the EF of the Mass close to you and you choose to go to SSPX anyway, it does cause me to question your motives. I recognize that is a bit direct and I suppose I could have said otherwise, but I would rather be honest. Don't get me wrong, I believe there are many good people who actually think they are doing the right thing within the SSPX. However, I also believe that there are many who simply enjoy thumbing their nose at Rome and being petulant. To be fair, my interaction with members of the SSPX has been relatively limited so I could be wrong, but that is my impression at this time.

I will likely leave off after this. You are welcome to the last word should you wish it.


Peace,

Last edited by jwinch2; Feb 26, '12 at 9:47 am.
  #66  
Old Feb 26, '12, 9:45 am
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MillTownCath MillTownCath is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

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Originally Posted by chevalier View Post
You've probably done that but I'd mention SSPX in confession and inquire about any ecclesiastical penalties that could need to be removed. Sorry for lack of other suggestions but I'm not great when it comes to a feeling of belonging. Been a struggle all my life. Don't reject your "normal" parish, see if you can get involved.
I'm not sure if you can answer this, but is having deep involvement with the SSPX, or the anti-Vatican II movement in general, considered a sin?
  #67  
Old Feb 26, '12, 10:40 am
maurin maurin is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

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Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
Interesting, since at least of those groups also offers the OF of the Mass. Perhaps. I believe it likely we would have seen some of them anyway. There is a general trend of looking to tradition in the Church right now with several groups performing older rites of the Mass. The Dominican, Sarum, Ambrosian, etc. are all examples. Giving SSPX credit for all of that seems a bit of a stretch at best. Yes it is. Specially, leaving it. I agree that many within the SSPX believe there are doctrinal issues. However, your statement above that the groups I mentioned are in fact teaching correct doctrine calls into question whether those perceived issues actually exist. If FSSP, ICKSP, CRNJ, CRSJC, etc. are in fact teaching faithful doctrine as you suggested, and they are in communion with the Holy See, then that argument starts to appear pretty thin. It doesn't. However, if you have an option for the EF of the Mass close to you and you choose to go to SSPX anyway, it does cause me to question your motives. I recognize that is a bit direct and I suppose I could have said otherwise, but I would rather be honest. Don't get me wrong, I believe there are many good people who actually think they are doing the right thing within the SSPX. However, I also believe that there are many who simply enjoy thumbing their nose at Rome and being petulant. To be fair, my interaction with members of the SSPX has been relatively limited so I could be wrong, but that is my impression at this time.

I will likely leave off after this. You are welcome to the last word should you wish it.


Peace,
The last word? Thank you for your kind offer, I believe I will take you up on it.

I shall confine my comments to your questioning of my motives. They are the same as yours. I love the Church. I love the Faith.

This love has caused us to reach opposite conclusions. You have chosen the safer-by-far path, I do not dispute. Traditionally, one is on the most solid ground when one one stands with the Pope.

The problem is that since the Council-- was it lumen gentium or dignitatis humanae that the drafters called the anti-syllabus?-- there is a, in my opinion, a clear difference in teachings between the pre-conciliar and conciliar Popes.

This difference in teachings is most apparent in the Mass: lex orandi, lex credendi. Which is another reason why I steer clear of Traditional Priests who also celebrate the NO Mass.

I have enjoyed our conversation, and thank you for having it!
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  #68  
Old Feb 26, '12, 10:58 am
jwinch2 jwinch2 is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

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I have enjoyed our conversation, and thank you for having it!
Peace,
  #69  
Old Feb 26, '12, 10:58 am
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Monica4316 Monica4316 is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

I would recommend to attend some FSSP retreats and other events, even if you don't live near any FSSP parish... that might help I know what you mean though my situation is different... I attended an FSSP parish last year and really loved it. Since then I've moved back home and now don't have any traditional parishes around me, and I don't really have a community anymore either, now that I'm out of university - my university had a great Catholic group. I feel very isolated and can't seem to find people in my parish who I can relate to, or get to know. But I'm hoping to attend a retreat, or visit my old FSSP parish when I'm visiting that city. I would say that traditional parishes have a good sense of community, I've found, but if you don't live around one, try to just attend various events etc.

God bless
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  #70  
Old Feb 26, '12, 8:00 pm
TimothyH TimothyH is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

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Originally Posted by Filii Dei View Post
Much agreed! I don't believe you are wrong at all. Such societies like the FSSP are indeed a blessing for the Church. However, the return of the SSPX would mark a milestone in the history of traditionalist movement, when we are all finally on the same page, working together towards a renewal of liturgy and tradition, rather than bickering amongst ourselves over who has the moral high ground and imagining ourselves above the Magisterium. We mustn't let the sin of pride consume our hearts.

I have faith that God will guide his servant Pope Benedict XVI in eventually making the right decision to resolve this canonical crisis so that we can unite to tackle the liturgical crisis, ad utilitatem quoque nostram, totiusque ecclesiae suae sanctae.
Doesn't insisting that the liturgy is in crisis or that it needs a renewal put oneself in the position of imagining that they themselves are above the Magesterium?

I see that as a fatal flaw of the traditionalist movement - the view of themselves as the persecuted minority who knows better than the Church herself what the liturgy is and isn't supposed to be. From what I see, the immediate effect which the return of the SSPX to full canonical status would have would be to embolden many hard-core traditionalists to more of this pride, not less.

The FFSP has, on the other hand, brought a wonderful option to the faithful, and have done so with humility, out of obedience to the bishop in the diocese where they are permitted to operate and in unity with the Church as a whole. I hope that the return of the SSPX will reflect this same spirit of humility and obedience, rather than being seen as a validation of the traditionalist movement's preferences as universal precepts of the Church.


-Tim-
  #71  
Old Feb 26, '12, 8:33 pm
piouswoman piouswoman is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

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Originally Posted by MillTownCath View Post
I'm not sure if you can answer this, but is having deep involvement with the SSPX, or the anti-Vatican II movement in general, considered a sin?
That's a great question...in my experience the biggest sin among "traditional" Catholics is pride.
  #72  
Old Feb 27, '12, 7:20 am
maurin maurin is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

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Happy first Sunday in Lent maurin!

You did ignore my comments regarding the ecumenism in the Church and hypocrisy. Responding that my logic is flawed is no answer....do you always dismiss exchanges when you haven't an answer?
Never. But I must ask you if it is pride which causes you not to accept my answer, and then turn around and speak in such a disrespectful manner?
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  #73  
Old Feb 27, '12, 8:56 am
piouswoman piouswoman is offline
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Thumbs down Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

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Never. But I must ask you if it is pride which causes you not to accept my answer, and then turn around and speak in such a disrespectful manner?
In all honesty, no. It appeared to me that you gave me a non answer, and I'm looking for meaningful answers and explanations. Point out my disrspect towards you...annoyance maybe, but no disrespect intended. I'm looking for discussion, without emotions taking over.

If there is any respect lacking, it is your disregard for my opinion of the Society after spending nearly 7years there. You may not like what I have to say, and that is your perogative, but I've run into too many trads now to see that there are many Society supporters who seem to think that the Society is the Church.
  #74  
Old Feb 27, '12, 9:39 am
TheExorcist TheExorcist is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

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Originally Posted by sicutincensum View Post
[Dear Moderators: I write this in the Traditional Catholic section of the forum because it largely relates to feelings of someone who left the SSPX, and seeking advice of other fellow traditional Catholics, who are more likely to have experienced simillar situations. However, if you believe this should be in the Family Life or Prayer Intentions forums, feel free to move it,]

I remember listening to an interview of a right-wing deputy of my country, who had been a high-rank communist, where she revealed some details of her exit of the communist party milieu. She related how she suddenly found herself without friends and, she said smilling, with no coffee shop to go to (as all her former "friends" were communist and disproved of her change).

Please do not assume I'm comparing the SSPX, which has plenty of good things, with the demoniacal communist ideology, because I'm not. However, the details of that interview came frequently to mind after I walked away from the SSPX. After more than two years of total commitment to the "cause", I found myself pretty much without friends (with the exception of a long-date friend), and, most of all, feeling tremendously isolated. After leaving my gilfriend due to other issues (as I described some months ago here on CAF), this feeling of loneliness became even more pressuring, and, I believe, is leading me towards a depression.

Yes, I know, perhaps the feeling should be the opposite, as I shifted from a small group to an huge reality: the Church! However, I believe those of you who have been SSPXers can relate to this: the SSPX is a family, and, specially if you are very commited to it (I did Chartres-Paris 2 times, I went to Écône, etc.), and thus you feel very integrated.

Now, on the contrary, I feel quite alone! I don't feel confortable in any parish in my region (there is not a single EF, not even a latin OF), and the parish where I feel better (which has a reverent OF) is not my home parish, and although I spend much of my time there, I don't have a close relation with the priests nor with any of the parish staff. Parishes look so closed (even my home parish does)!

Also, I've been being tempted (yes, I know it's a temptation, even my parents, who are'nt practicing Catholics have told me it's a stupid temptation) into thinking that perhaps I'll never find a girl that I could marry, because in my country/region traditional/conservative catholicism is pretty much non-existing. The only "conservative" group that is active here is Opus Dei, and I don't feel confortable with their spirituality (Opus Dei is great, but it's just not for me).

Once again, perhaps former SSPXers can relate to this: when you're a young SSPXer, you are within a circle of young people commited to the Church (in their way), and even if you don't find a girl within your chapel, you'll sure you'll find one at Post Falls, St. Mary's or in France.

Up to now this has been a huge rant, but my purpose is to see if anyone relates to these feelings and/or has experienced the same, or if you can give any encouragement.

After leaving the SSPX, I immediately joined the Confraternity of Saint Peter (even if the nearest FSSP chapel is some 600 miles away), so I could feel I belonged somewhere (even if only spiritually). I'm planning to start practising a martial art (Krag Maga) and to attend some FSSP mixed retreats in the future (perhaps a good way to find a prospective spouse). Do you have any further suggestion?

Of course, I would be very grateful if you pray an Hail Mary for me. This whole situation is not being easy to overcome. However, I hope this doesnt' sound like I regreat having left the SSPX. Nothing is better than to feel and to be in full communion with the Vicar of Christ. Ubi Petro, ibi Ecclesia.
Hi sicutincensum,

Just out of curiosity, if you don't mind saying, where do you live?
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  #75  
Old Feb 27, '12, 2:37 pm
sicutincensum sicutincensum is offline
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Default Re: Four months after leaving the SSPX

@TheExorcist: I can PM you my location if you wish to know more. As for the public, it suffices to say that I was born and live in Europe.
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