What is it that homosexuals really want?

[John21652]

Originally Posted by mitex

It's rather obvious I'm a homosexual/gay/same-sex attracted (to be sensitive to everyone's terms). Let's put it this way. I am stereotypical. Connect the dots from there.

People see me and they like to talk. Although I'm working on trying to overhaul the way I dress, act, and appear in public its very difficult and an expensive process. I have to buy more neutral clothing that is more... Less campy and flashy... I have to change my hairstyle.

I'm a target. So yes I do have a sign in some respects. And that leads to all the problems.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere.

You do wear a 'sign' around your neck.

You say that makes you a 'target'.

A target for what?

And how is it that a Church is not a safe environment for someone like you?

[mitex]

Originally Posted by John21652

Ok, now we are getting somewhere.

You do wear a 'sign' around your neck.

You say that makes you a 'target'.

A target for what?

And how is it that a Church is not a safe environment for someone like you?

Well one time I heard a mother tell her kids not to sit next to me because I was a "deviant" and another time several people make offhanded comments jokes and comments about the way I walk or speak.

Granted this may be a general joke in general about homosexuals. I admit target is an overreaction. Maybe Im just being paranoid.
It just hurts my feelings.

[LoyalViews]

Originally Posted by BlueEyedLady

That was on topic! They all want different things, because they are individuals, just like anyone. They are far more than their sexual identity, as many tend to forget.

My answer to the question is that they all want different things. My answer in not off topic just because I refused to throw out a nasty generalization.

I'm sorry, please forgive me. It's just that I saw your post as that way, I misinterpreted that.

[John21652]

Originally Posted by mitex

Well one time I heard a mother tell her kids not to sit next to me because I was a "deviant" and another time several people make offhanded comments jokes and comments about the way I walk or speak.

Did this demonstrate to you that a Church was not a safe environment for someone like you?

Granted this may be a general joke in general about homosexuals. I admit target is an overreaction. Maybe Im just being paranoid.
It just hurts my feelings.

Are you saying a Church isn't a safe place for someone like you because you might have your feelings hurt?

[mitex]

Originally Posted by John21652

Did this demonstrate to you that a Church was not a safe environment for someone like you?

Are you saying a Church isn't a safe place for someone like you because you might have your feelings hurt?

No it did not... I was wrong...

No I was wrong... My apologies...

[bscastro]

Thank you for sharing this point of view. Not being homosexual, I have no idea or wouldn't try to guess what it would be like. I admire your choice to stay faithful and celibate - or more accurately am impressed (perhaps in the celibacy part). In any case, I respect and appreciate your response, which is educational for me. I have several non-Catholic homosexual friends and we've agreed not to discuss the issue knowing our views differ, so I never really heard your viewpoint (admittedly, I haven't actively sought it out).

God bless,
Bryan

Originally Posted by mitex

As a celibate homosexual I have things I want. I want to be regarded as a full member of the parish I am in and the opportunity to be considered for the same positions and responsibilities as everyone else (excluding the priesthood obviously). Father James Martin S.J. sounds off on this perfectly here.

I also want to be included in society without stigma, question, or discrimination (no I do not want to get married or have sex). Catholics especially should be sensitive to my needs and questions as I am not only defying the expectations from the gay community to be faithful to the Church and but to my family who are liberal Episcopalians and frown on me joining the Catholic Church and becoming celibate.

I don't want people to make snide remarks or gossip about my sexual identity I want to be included in their circles as a "normal" human being who has worth, dignity, and value. Do I have "disordered tendencies?" Yes but unless I'm doing something contrary to Church teaching no layman has the right to treat me differently or group me in some category that discards my human value.

So yes despite the fact that I am a rather forward celibate homosexual you still have to accept me for who I am and show the same love due to a fellow Christian.

As I promise to strive to love those who defy my expectations as well!

[Allegra]

Originally Posted by mitex

Well one time I heard a mother tell her kids not to sit next to me because I was a "deviant" and another time several people make offhanded comments jokes and comments about the way I walk or speak.

Granted this may be a general joke in general about homosexuals. I admit target is an overreaction. Maybe Im just being paranoid.
It just hurts my feelings.

Someone said this to you in your church!?!?!?

[John21652]

Originally Posted by mitex

No it did not... I was wrong...

No I was wrong... My apologies...

Ok.

So what's the lesson here?

You were angry and hurt because some mother said to her kids don't sit next to him because he's a devaint. Correct?

And you had your feelings hurt when a few made some smart cracks about the way you were dressed. Correct?

And here you are telling us you are a celibate homosexual who just wants to go to Church and be like everyone else. Correct?

The thing is, you are dressing up like a full blown, practicing homosexual, or as a typical 'gay'. Stop dressing like a typical practicing gay, because, not being one, you are not typical. You are labelling yourself as something you are not. That's what the gay lobby has done to you. It is they who have labelled you because they have encouraged gays to dress a certain way and to flaunt their homosexuality, their difference, in the faces of society. And society feels threatened and hurt, just like you do. Flaunting it in Church is flaunting something that is not catholic, so that's worse!

So go buy a pair of jeans and a nice shirt and see what happens. Or even go buy a nice suit to use as your Sunday best. See how you get on then. If you wont, then perhaps you just want to continue to flaunt your gayness, which is the same as labelling yourself, or the same as putting a great big sign around your neck. Imagine if I went to Church and said to people "Hi, my name is John and I'm a practicing heterosexual male"! They'd throw me in the loony bin, wouldn't they?

[DeniseNY]

Originally Posted by mitex

Well one time I heard a mother tell her kids not to sit next to me because I was a "deviant" and another time several people make offhanded comments jokes and comments about the way I walk or speak.

Granted this may be a general joke in general about homosexuals. I admit target is an overreaction. Maybe Im just being paranoid.
It just hurts my feelings.

I'm sorry this has happened to you.

I'm sure you've shared things here (such as the fact that you're celibate) that the parishoners at your Church don't know; but, that doesn't excuse them judging you, nor does it make it right.

[Deus_lo_vult]

Originally Posted by DeniseNY

I'm sorry this has happened to you.

I'm sure you've shared things here (such as the fact that you're celibate) that the parishoners at your Church don't know; but, that doesn't excuse them judging you, nor does it make it right.

Well if you come into a Church dressed scandalously, that's kind of how Catholics are instructed by Church teaching to respond to such disorderly dsplays, with the exception of cracking jokes of course.

That mother was actually not wrong to refuse to seat her child next to someone who scandalized the faith by appearing to say that homosexual behavior is ok, in a house of God, of all places.

[Allegra]

Originally Posted by Deus_lo_vult

Well if you come into a Church dressed scandalously, that's kind of how Catholics are instructed by Church teaching to respond to such disorderly dsplays, with the exception of cracking jokes of course.

That mother was actually not wrong to refuse to seat her child next to someone who scandalized the faith by appearing to say that homosexual behavior is ok, in a house of God, of all places.

How scandelously does a person have to be dressed in order to be justly called a deviant? I'm assuming this man isn't going into Mass wearing a fedora and lipstick.

[Deus_lo_vult]

Originally Posted by Allegra

How scandelously does a person have to be dressed in order to be justly called a deviant? I'm assuming this man isn't going into Mass wearing a fedora and lipstick.

Certain words have grossly overstated connotations. That's the same reason you can no longer use the word "heretic" to describe someone who is behaving "heretically," even though the Church Fathers used that term all the time; indeed, most Catholics in America are probably heretics, since, I believe a small majority of them tend to be liberal on social issues in contravention of Church teaching.

As to the particulars of his appearance, I can't comment. But the point is, he admitted to dressing according to the flamboyant homosexual stereotype. And it's not just homosexuals. Have you ever been in Mass during the summertime when heterosexual girls are wearing shorts hiked all the way up to their buttocks? It's disturbing.

It's bad enough girls are wearing those black spandex leggings in Church during the winter time.

This shouldn't happen, and the only way you discourage that kind of behavior is by instructing the person against doing it, stigmatizing it and disassociating with it.

[Allegra]

Originally Posted by Deus_lo_vult

Certain words have grossly overstated connotations. That's the same reason you can no longer use the word "heretic" to describe someone who is behaving "heretically," even though the Church Fathers used that term all the time; indeed, most Catholics in America are probably heretics, since, I believe a small majority of them tend to be liberal on social issues in contravention of Church teaching.

As to the particulars of his appearance, I can't comment. But the point is, he admitted to dressing according to the flamboyant homosexual stereotype. And it's not just homosexuals. Have you ever been in Mass during the summertime when heterosexual girls are wearing shorts hiked all the way up to their buttocks? It's disturbing.

It's bad enough girls are wearing those black spandex leggings in Church during the winter time.

This shouldn't happen, and the only way you discourage that kind of behavior is by instructing the person against doing it, stigmatizing it and disassociating with it.

You didn't answer the question. I didn't get from his post that he was running around in sequins. He said that his overall appearance was effiminate and he was trying to combat that by changing his hair style and attire. That doesn't automatically mean that his original clothes were at all inappropriate for Mass. So, are we allowed to call every guy in a turtle neck a deviant? What, pray tell, is the cutoff line? Too much hair gel? argyle socks? Pants made out of linen?

[Deus_lo_vult]

Originally Posted by Allegra

You didn't answer the question. I didn't get from his post that he was running around in sequins. He said that his overall appearance was effiminate and he was trying to combat that by changing his hair style and attire. That doesn't automatically mean that his original clothes were at all inappropriate for Mass. So, are we allowed to call every guy in a turtle neck a deviant? What, pray tell, is the cutoff line? Too much hair gel? argyle socks? Pants made out of linen?

You are intentionally avoiding the use of common sense.

Does the Church honestly have to approve a list of banned articles of clothing before you will exercise a modicum of discretion? Do I need to tell you that wearing a miniskirt in Church is inappropriate before you do it, or did you have the good sense and prudence to know that without my saying it?

People are equipped to make these judgements. You make them every Sunday when you decide what to wear for Mass.

Again, I can't comment on the specific articles of clothing that he wore, but he admitted they were problematic. Apparently his clothing was so un-subtle that he stuck out like a sore thumb. At a minimum, Sunday-best should be conservative and understated (I wear khakis and a button down shirt) it should not draw attention to oneself, but I think you already knew this, Allegra.

[Contra Mundum]

Originally Posted by BlueEyedLady

That was on topic! They all want different things, because they are individuals, just like anyone. They are far more than their sexual identity, as many tend to forget.

My answer to the question is that they all want different things. My answer in not off topic just because I refused to throw out a nasty generalization.

Of course they want different things but their sexual identity seems to drive everything and determine how they define things. Homosexuals never say that is something they do, but something they are. Now, isn't that truly dehumanising?