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  #16  
Old Feb 23, '12, 7:20 am
Castello Castello is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

The cousin may be involved - ask him to give the prayer at the reception, to serve as a groomsman...
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  #17  
Old Feb 23, '12, 7:20 am
dans0622 dans0622 is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
... However, again, to my knowledge there is no such dispensation and to my knowledge two Catholics cannot be dispensed from form.
Hello,

You are right. Here is the Latin text of an official response on this question, from July 5, 1985: "D. Utrum extra casum urgentis mortis periculi Episcopus dioecesanus, ad normam can. 87, 1, dispensare valeat a forma canonica in matrimonio duorum catholicorum.

R. Negative." http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/po...nticae_lt.html

(The Vatican website does not have the English translation. For those with no facility in Latin, the question is whether the diocesan bishop, outside of a case of an urgent danger of death, can dispense two Catholics from canonical form. The answer is no.)

Of course, the Holy See can dispense and I have seen a couple cases where it was done but those were "extreme" situations.

To the OP, then, your daughter will need to arrange something through the parish priest and diocese. An authorized priest/deacon must ask for and receive the consent of the couple. All the other particulars of the ceremony are negotiable (in theory).

Dan
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  #18  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:09 am
GraceDK GraceDK is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloakum View Post
I didn't see anything like this on the list so here goes.

My daughter and her BF just got engaged .... They live in another province, but she called me today to ask if it were possible to get married by my cousin who is very close to us in our local parish. I told her firs we'd have to find out about booking the parish and go through those channels and ask the Priest.

If they chose to get married outside by a Protestant I told her their marriage won't be recognized in the Catholic church. I thought that if they got permission by the priest to get mararied by a Pastor, their marriage would be recognized as mine was.

I'm a convert so I'm not up on all of this.

Another question is : Whom do they get permission from ? A priest in the Province where they currently reside and work Or do they get permission from the Priest at "home" ?

Thanks for the input.
Indeed you are right. Its not the priest who bestows the Sacrament or effects it, in the case of marriage. Its the two people who make the vows who make the marriage happen, if they are free to do so etc.
The place is also not important. However, they need a dispensation from the normal form, if they wish that their pastor friend is there instead of a priest.
The idea is okay. The sacramental nature of their marriage will not be effected.. they are both Catholics, they give the marriage Sacrament to one another and so they will have a Catholic sacramental marriage.

Maybe you could talk to your diozese (sorry if the English spelling is wrong).. I think they can issue the dispensation ...
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  #19  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:24 am
Castello Castello is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dans0622 View Post
Hello,

You are right. Here is the Latin text of an official response on this question, from July 5, 1985: "D. Utrum extra casum urgentis mortis periculi Episcopus dioecesanus, ad normam can. 87, 1, dispensare valeat a forma canonica in matrimonio duorum catholicorum.

R. Negative." http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/po...nticae_lt.html

(The Vatican website does not have the English translation. For those with no facility in Latin, the question is whether the diocesan bishop, outside of a case of an urgent danger of death, can dispense two Catholics from canonical form. The answer is no.)

Of course, the Holy See can dispense and I have seen a couple cases where it was done but those were "extreme" situations.

To the OP, then, your daughter will need to arrange something through the parish priest and diocese. An authorized priest/deacon must ask for and receive the consent of the couple. All the other particulars of the ceremony are negotiable (in theory).

Dan
Here is a US Diocese with the same information, my earlier post was incorrect. Please, read the above post or go to this link:

http://www.archdiocese.la/prayer/sac...ical/form.html
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  #20  
Old Feb 23, '12, 10:07 am
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SwizzleStick SwizzleStick is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GraceDK View Post
Indeed you are right. Its not the priest who bestows the Sacrament or effects it, in the case of marriage. Its the two people who make the vows who make the marriage happen, if they are free to do so etc.
The place is also not important. However, they need a dispensation from the normal form, if they wish that their pastor friend is there instead of a priest.
The idea is okay.
The sacramental nature of their marriage will not be effected.. they are both Catholics, they give the marriage Sacrament to one another and so they will have a Catholic sacramental marriage.

Maybe you could talk to your diozese (sorry if the English spelling is wrong).. I think they can issue the dispensation ...
I do not think that is correct (bolding mine). Two Catholics must get married in a Catholic Church unless there is grave reason to do otherwise (maybe someone is near death's door in a hospital), BUT they must be married by a priest since they are Catholic. Clergy from other Christian denominations and other religious faiths are welcome to participate in the Catholic wedding ceremony. i.e. give a blessing, sing, reflect. But, only the Catholic priest or deacon may receive the wedding vows of a Catholic couple. And, of course only a priest can preside at the altar in a Catholic Church.
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  #21  
Old Feb 23, '12, 11:01 am
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promethius promethius is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

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Originally Posted by promethius View Post
They should discuss this with their priest (the priest for the parish whose territory they currently reside in). The permission will come in the form of a "Dispensation From Canonical Form" in which the priest will work with them to petition the diocese for the Bishop to grant said dispensation...
My apologies... for some reason I was thinking the BF might not be catholic.

I agree with the others, then, that there is no dispensation for this (at least, no applicable dispensation). I would also note that the pastor cousin could DEFINITELY take on the role of altar server as well as lector during the wedding, and could even speak at the reception. There is no reason he can't be a very active participant here.

At the same time I would take note that to abuse the sacrament of marriage is a grave sin... they must NOT marry outside of the church knowing it is invalid and only intending to convalidate later. They must also not do that and think that they can just wipe it away with confession... that would be to abuse TWO sacraments, since confession is not a legalistic matter but requires true repentence.
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  #22  
Old Feb 23, '12, 12:28 pm
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SwizzleStick SwizzleStick is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

"Must Catholics Marry in a Church?
FR. WILLIAM SAUNDERS

Do Catholics have to be married in the Catholic Church? The "straight answer" is simply "yes," but let's understand also the "why." "


Entire entry: http://www.catholiceducation.org/art...on/re0043.html
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  #23  
Old Feb 24, '12, 1:57 am
GraceDK GraceDK is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwizzleStick View Post
I do not think that is correct (bolding mine). Two Catholics must get married in a Catholic Church unless there is grave reason to do otherwise (maybe someone is near death's door in a hospital), BUT they must be married by a priest since they are Catholic. Clergy from other Christian denominations and other religious faiths are welcome to participate in the Catholic wedding ceremony. i.e. give a blessing, sing, reflect. But, only the Catholic priest or deacon may receive the wedding vows of a Catholic couple. And, of course only a priest can preside at the altar in a Catholic Church.
Well, as far as I know you are wrong. Dispensation is needed of course, if people wanna get married including other form...
As for the place;
Eg. getting married on a beach is okay.
Or, like my sister, she tried to be allowed to get married in her childhood Lutheran church, bringing a catholic priest there. The Catholic establisment was okay with that. The Lutheran Church refused the request

Things are not so strict as you think.
But of course dispensations are needed in this case, dispensation from form.
Again, the main givers of the sacrament here are the couple who give the Sacrament to each other
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  #24  
Old Feb 24, '12, 4:38 am
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GraceDK View Post
Well, as far as I know you are wrong. Dispensation is needed of course, if people wanna get married including other form...
As for the place;
Eg. getting married on a beach is okay.
Or, like my sister, she tried to be allowed to get married in her childhood Lutheran church, bringing a catholic priest there. The Catholic establisment was okay with that. The Lutheran Church refused the request

Things are not so strict as you think.
But of course dispensations are needed in this case, dispensation from form.
Again, the main givers of the sacrament here are the couple who give the Sacrament to each other
The most important factors in this situation are two Catholics are involved. How can two Catholics be dispensed from form? And, why would they be?
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  #25  
Old Feb 24, '12, 5:35 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwizzleStick View Post
The most important factors in this situation are two Catholics are involved. How can two Catholics be dispensed from form? And, why would they be?
You and Grace are talking about two different things.

Two Catholics cannot be dispensed from form, that has already been establishd.

Two Catholics can receive permission to marry in a location other than their parish Church, but still in the Catholic form (i.e. the priest or deacon still presides and witnesses the marriage). It requires permission of the bishop.

Can.* 1115 Marriages are to be celebrated in a parish where either of the contracting parties has a domicile, quasidomicile, or month long residence or, if it concerns transients, in the parish where they actually reside. With the permission of the proper ordinary or proper pastor, marriages can be celebrated elsewhere.
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ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
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  #26  
Old Feb 24, '12, 6:57 am
GraceDK GraceDK is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
You and Grace are talking about two different things.

Two Catholics cannot be dispensed from form, that has already been establishd.

Where has it been established? It would interest me to know. It seemed like the OPs family members had already received the dispensation to have the Lutheran minister there instead of a priest. Or not??? I thought this was permittable if the dispensation was given even if both parties were Catholic... because again, the couple gives each other the Sacrament. Its not the priest or pastor who gives the sacrament of marriage...

Two Catholics can receive permission to marry in a location other than their parish Church, but still in the Catholic form (i.e. the priest or deacon still presides and witnesses the marriage). It requires permission of the bishop.

Can.* 1115 Marriages are to be celebrated in a parish where either of the contracting parties has a domicile, quasidomicile, or month long residence or, if it concerns transients, in the parish where they actually reside. With the permission of the proper ordinary or proper pastor, marriages can be celebrated elsewhere.
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  #27  
Old Feb 24, '12, 7:42 am
1ke 1ke is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GraceDK View Post
Where has it been established? It would interest me to know.
Post 22. The Vatican directive makes it clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GraceDK View Post
It seemed like the OPs family members had already received the dispensation to have the Lutheran minister there instead of a priest. Or not???
Not.

That was the OP's original question: is it possible for the daughter to receive such a dispensation to have the non-Catholic relative permform the marriage of two Catholics.

The answer to that question is no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GraceDK View Post
I thought this was permittable if the dispensation was given even if both parties were Catholic...
It is not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GraceDK View Post
because again, the couple gives each other the Sacrament. Its not the priest or pastor who gives the sacrament of marriage...
Which is true but not relevant. Canon 1108 establishes that FOR VALIDITY Catholics must marry in the Catholic form.

The dispensation from form is only allowed in the canons dealing with mixed marriage, and the Vatican document linked to in post 22 makes it clear no such dispensation can be given when the marriage is between two Catholics.
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  #28  
Old Feb 24, '12, 7:49 am
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SwizzleStick SwizzleStick is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
You and Grace are talking about two different things.
Yes. I was trying to make the point that two Catholics may not receive a dispensation from form. Yes, I suppose somewhere there is a liberal Bishop who might allow the marriage of two Catholics on a beach in an extreme situation (whatever that may be ), BUT the marriage would have to be presided over by a Catholic priest, not someone from another faith tradition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
...Two Catholics cannot be dispensed from form, that has already been establishd.

Two Catholics can receive permission to marry in a location other than their parish Church, but still in the Catholic form (i.e. the priest or deacon still presides and witnesses the marriage). It requires permission of the bishop.

Can.* 1115 Marriages are to be celebrated in a parish where either of the contracting parties has a domicile, quasidomicile, or month long residence or, if it concerns transients, in the parish where they actually reside. With the permission of the proper ordinary or proper pastor, marriages can be celebrated elsewhere.
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  #29  
Old Feb 24, '12, 10:10 am
Castello Castello is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

Perfect solution, the protestant cousin converts and enters the Deaconate program, when he is ordained he can witness the marriage!
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  #30  
Old Feb 24, '12, 11:07 am
GraceDK GraceDK is offline
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Default Re: How can 2 Catholics get married by a Protestant Pastor who is a Relative ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ke View Post
Post 22. The Vatican directive makes it clear.

.
Im too lazy to look... I'll take your word for it Ike. I stand corrected.
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