Christian pastors faces death penalty in Iran

[ringil]

I notice that no priests have been accused of this in Iran

Could it be that priests are smarter than to get embroiled in all of this. There are priests in Iran you know.

[iamrefreshed]

Originally Posted by ringil

I notice that no priests have been accused of this in Iran

Could it be that priests are smarter than to get embroiled in all of this. There are priests in Iran you know.

Mmmm. The blame the victim angle.

[Seamus L]

I don't think we know the complete story of what's going on with this case. Back in Sept-Oct Iranian Press TV and FARS both explicitly stated that Nadarkhani was not being charged with apostasy, but since then there's been no mention of his case that I know of. The timing of the story with all the tension over Iran does make me a little suspicious however.

[ringil]

Originally Posted by iamrefreshed

Mmmm. The blame the victim angle.

Well what is the difference in the two approaches? It's a valid question.

I suspect our Protestant brethren could learn something from our Priests of how to minister in Iran.

[Publisher]

Originally Posted by qui est ce

So you are saying Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek, and Latin don't have those depths. Certainly things do lose there meanings in translations, especially humor. But I don't buy into the explicit words "Kill" cannot be correctly translated.

How did you draw that conclusion from my post? I'm baffled.

In the writers of Judeo/Christian scriptures never claimed their writings could not be translated into other languages....not so with the Qur'an. The Qur'an is only the Qur'an when in Arabic...it ceases to be the Holy Qur'an in other languages.

[qui est ce]

Originally Posted by Publisher

How did you draw that conclusion from my post? I'm baffled.

In the writers of Judeo/Christian scriptures never claimed their writings could not be translated into other languages....not so with the Qur'an. The Qur'an is only the Qur'an when in Arabic...it ceases to be the Holy Qur'an in other languages.

I don't buy the claim that the Arabic cannot be translated. Some innuendo could be lost, but not basic teachings.

[Publisher]

Originally Posted by qui est ce

I don't buy the claim that the Arabic cannot be translated. Some innuendo could be lost, but not basic teachings.

You don't have to "buy the claim"....it's not your faith tradition....but that is the claim Muslims make for their holy book....the true Holy Qur'an only exists in the Arabic...all "translations" into other languages are "commentary" and not the "true Qur'an".

What you "buy" or reject doesn't change that.....no translation has the depth of meaning in other languages that the Arabic has for Muslims.

[iamrefreshed]

Originally Posted by Publisher

You don't have to "buy the claim"....it's not your faith tradition....but that is the claim Muslims make for their holy book....the true Holy Qur'an only exists in the Arabic...all "translations" into other languages are "commentary" and not the "true Qur'an".

What you "buy" or reject doesn't change that.....no translation has the depth of meaning in other languages that the Arabic has for Muslims.

Acutually, I do not believe all sects of Islam believe the Quran to be "untranslatable".

I'd have to doublecheck but I do not believe the Sufi or Shia believe so.

[scipio337]

Originally Posted by ringil

Well what is the difference in the two approaches? It's a valid question.

I suspect our Protestant brethren could learn something from our Priests of how to minister in Iran.

I guess it helps if you're born a Chaldean Catholic, huh?

I'm sure if a Chaldean Catholic converted from Islam, they would face the same charges. This man isn't charged for being a pastor. He's being charged for leaving Islam.

[qui est ce]

Originally Posted by Publisher

You don't have to "buy the claim"....it's not your faith tradition....but that is the claim Muslims make for their holy book....the true Holy Qur'an only exists in the Arabic...all "translations" into other languages are "commentary" and not the "true Qur'an".

What you "buy" or reject doesn't change that.....no translation has the depth of meaning in other languages that the Arabic has for Muslims.

I understand that. I wasn't really clear about my objection. My objection is not that the holy book exists only in Arabic. What I don't buy is that if we read certain verses in English that say for example, "Kill those who turn away from Islam" don't really mean that because it's a bad translation.

[Publisher]

Originally Posted by qui est ce

I understand that. I wasn't really clear about my objection. My objection is not that the holy book exists only in Arabic. What I don't buy is that if we read certain verses in English that say for example, "Kill those who turn away from Islam" don't really mean that because it's a bad translation.

Ahhh...that I don't know....I've read "Heart of the Koran" and "The Essential Koran", in both books the authors state that the depth of meaning is layered in Arabic and carries with it more depth of meaning than what is revealed in English translations of the Qur'an.

The Sufis say that only in the Arabic can the layer upon layer of meaning and spiritual depth of the Qur'an be plummed. From all that I've read the deeper meanings of the Qur'an are lost when translated into other languages. Deeper spiritual meanings are lost.....the word "jihad" and it's meaning CAN be understood to "war against" injustice...not necessarily engage in violent actions...but wage war by righteous living to withstand evil.

Personally, I don't try to presume to understand the Qur'an except through those Muslim writers I am familiar with....English and American writers who happen to be Muslim show a deep spirituality I have found not even hinted at when I read non-Muslim "commentaries" on the Qur'an.

I choose to give Muslims the benefit of the doubt in interpreting their own holy book rather than impose my very western understanding I tend to impart to translations of the Bible.

Since I don't speak nor read Arabic, I can only bow to the wisdom of those that do in their statments that an English translation of the Qur'an loses so much depth in meaning than if read and understood in Arabic.

I would rather have a knowledgeable Catholic explain Catholic teachings than a hostile Protestant explain it to me....so too, I would rather seek understanding of Islam from a Muslim, than a hostile Christian telling me what they believe.

[Daralharb]

Originally Posted by Publisher

Ahhh...that I don't know....I've read "Heart of the Koran" and "The Essential Koran", in both books the authors state that the depth of meaning is layered in Arabic and carries with it more depth of meaning than what is revealed in English translations of the Qur'an.

The Sufis say that only in the Arabic can the layer upon layer of meaning and spiritual depth of the Qur'an be plummed. From all that I've read the deeper meanings of the Qur'an are lost when translated into other languages. Deeper spiritual meanings are lost.....the word "jihad" and it's meaning CAN be understood to "war against" injustice...not necessarily engage in violent actions...but wage war by righteous living to withstand evil.

Personally, I don't try to presume to understand the Qur'an except through those Muslim writers I am familiar with....English and American writers who happen to be Muslim show a deep spirituality I have found not even hinted at when I read non-Muslim "commentaries" on the Qur'an.

I choose to give Muslims the benefit of the doubt in interpreting their own holy book rather than impose my very western understanding I tend to impart to translations of the Bible.

Since I don't speak nor read Arabic, I can only bow to the wisdom of those that do in their statments that an English translation of the Qur'an loses so much depth in meaning than if read and understood in Arabic.

I would rather have a knowledgeable Catholic explain Catholic teachings than a hostile Protestant explain it to me....so too, I would rather seek understanding of Islam from a Muslim, than a hostile Christian telling me what they believe.

What if a Christian merely repeats what a Muslim said? Are we now denigrating the messenger in lieu of the message's content, however "correct"?

What you are describing is a world where commentaries do not exist, whereas we live in a world where they do. I could take an English commentary on the Quran, and not need to read Arabic. Especially if the commentary was written by a Muslim polyglot who is a scholar.

Funny you say all this, considering that the entirety of the Muslim world pretty much understands the Quran as it has been accused of "negative" portrayal here. What Americans and others MEAN to say is "That is not western Islam".
Only difference is, the western Muslim is the one who often doesn't read a lick of Arabic, nor has access to masjid which is teaching traditional schools of thought.

When Muslims say that Islam is a religion of peace, they mean that once the entire world is subdued to it, the world will be peaceful. Hence distinctions such a Dar Al-Islam (House of Peace[via submission to Allah waw al-Rasul{Mohammed}]) and Dar Al-Harb (House of War- that's you and me, brutha).

They are a religion of physical scapegoating which blames everything on the physical. "If it wasn't for Israel... there'd be world peace!", "if not for X... there'd be world peace", eventually leading to "There is no peace until Islam is victorious".

Propaganda is only as good as the person hearing it is stupid and lazy to not investigate.

I'm neither stupid or lazy, and Islam isn't peaceful, and western Muslims are very poor at following the "deen" at large, unless we realize the application of patience, and Taqqiyah.

[Publisher]

Originally Posted by Daralharb

What if a Christian merely repeats what a Muslim said? Are we now denigrating the messenger in lieu of the message's content, however "correct"?

What you are describing is a world where commentaries do not exist, whereas we live in a world where they do. I could take an English commentary on the Quran, and not need to read Arabic. Especially if the commentary was written by a Muslim polyglot who is a scholar.

Funny you say all this, considering that the entirety of the Muslim world pretty much understands the Quran as it has been accused of "negative" portrayal here. What Americans and others MEAN to say is "That is not western Islam".
Only difference is, the western Muslim is the one who often doesn't read a lick of Arabic, nor has access to masjid which is teaching traditional schools of thought.

When Muslims say that Islam is a religion of peace, they mean that once the entire world is subdued to it, the world will be peaceful. Hence distinctions such a Dar Al-Islam (House of Peace[via submission to Allah waw al-Rasul{Mohammed}]) and Dar Al-Harb (House of War- that's you and me, brutha).

They are a religion of physical scapegoating which blames everything on the physical. "If it wasn't for Israel... there'd be world peace!", "if not for X... there'd be world peace", eventually leading to "There is no peace until Islam is victorious".

Propaganda is only as good as the person hearing it is stupid and lazy to not investigate.

I'm neither stupid or lazy, and Islam isn't peaceful, and western Muslims are very poor at following the "deen" at large, unless we realize the application of patience, and Taqqiyah.

As I said....I'd rather try to understand Islam from a Muslim who wanted to take the time to teach me, than from a hostile Christian that provided a very skewed understanding of Islam....how you choose to understand Islam and by what commentaries and teachers you choose to employ is up to you.....I don't necessarily think my way is "better"....but is works and makes sense for me....so you too must find that medium to use if you wish to understand Islam....I very well may be wrong.....but I'd rather trust my own counsel on the matter...as you yours rather than mine.

To me it's like seeking to understand Christianity with only reading the book "The Dark Side of Christianity" and think from reading that book...I now understand Christianity....I get a limited understanding of Christianites "dark side"...but not an understanding of the spirit and teaching of the man Jesus.

Peace to you friend.

[iamrefreshed]

Originally Posted by Publisher

As I said....I'd rather try to understand Islam from a Muslim who wanted to take the time to teach me, than from a hostile Christian that provided a very skewed understanding of Islam.....

While that's a noble gesture it is flawed.

Just because you choose to listen to a believer doesn't get you the truth....just their truth.

Go to Saudi Arabia and ask a Wahabbi Muslim believer to teach you Islam.

[He Man]

Originally Posted by ringil

Well what is the difference in the two approaches? It's a valid question.

I suspect our Protestant brethren could learn something from our Priests of how to minister in Iran.

Likewise, our Muslim brethren could learn a lot from us in the "don't act like neanderthals and kill other religion's clergy/coverts" department...