When does someone lie?

fakename · #1 Feb 25, '12, 4:32 pm

Because in confession I think I may've told a lie.

So a lie is a thought proposition that is contrary to your other thought propositions.

But I said something that was not totally contrary or non-contrary but a mix of the two.

Basically I said that a sin was non-intentional not because I remember that it was unintentional, but because I lacked the words to describe the level of intent or motivation behind the sin (which was, probably less than full or if it was, I don't remember it).

so by saying that it was unintentional, was I lying?

Zundrah · #2 Feb 25, '12, 6:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fakename

Because in confession I think I may've told a lie.

So a lie is a thought proposition that is contrary to your other thought propositions.

But I said something that was not totally contrary or non-contrary but a mix of the two.

Basically I said that a sin was non-intentional not because I remember that it was unintentional, but because I lacked the words to describe the level of intent or motivation behind the sin (which was, probably less than full or if it was, I don't remember it).

so by saying that it was unintentional, was I lying?

I'd think so.

fakename · #3 Feb 25, '12, 7:39 pm

here's another interesting question about lying.

Is it possible to lie w/o knowing it if the definition of lying is to say something against your thoughts.

Now it seems possible to unknowingly say something against your thoughts or convictions but if so, then would that thing said be a lie?

Zundrah · #4 Feb 25, '12, 7:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fakename

here's another interesting question about lying.

Is it possible to lie w/o knowing it if the definition of lying is to say something against your thoughts.

Now it seems possible to unknowingly say something against your thoughts or convictions but if so, then would that thing said be a lie?

But a lie is just something that isn't true, or is far fetched.

Katholish · #5 Feb 25, '12, 8:51 pm

The definition of a lie is "an untruth with the intention to deceive". There are two parts to it.

If you knew the action was sinful and did it anyway of your own free will, then the sin was intentional.

If you think you lied in the confessional, you should confess the lie and re-confess the original sin, because if you did in fact lie, it would have been an impediment to being forgiven.

I don't know what happened exactly so I cannot tell you whether it was a lie or not, all I can do is explain the definition of a lie.

fakename · #6 Feb 25, '12, 9:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by user Zundrah

But a lie is just something that isn't true, or is far fetched.

Truly, a lie is just saying something that you don't believe. If you believe it, then it is not a lie regardless of whether or not it is true. So my question remains, if you don't know that you are lying, then are you lying? Are you capable of mistakenly lying?

**LilyM** · #7 Feb 26, '12, 1:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by fakename

Truly, a lie is just saying something that you don't believe. If you believe it, then it is not a lie regardless of whether or not it is true. So my question remains, if you don't know that you are lying, then are you lying? Are you capable of mistakenly lying?

Not so. It is not a lie if I say something that I don't believe, but without the intent to deceive.

For example I may say something that I do not believe to be true because I am an actor speaking my lines in a play (eg an actor playing Romeo telling an actress playing Juliet that he loves her, when he really loathes the sight of the actress). Or I am telling a story that everyone knows to be a story (we don't really believe there were three little pigs do we? Yet we day 'Once upon a time there WERE three little pigs ...')

You do have to have the intention to deceive people for it to be a lie.

To answer your last question, if you don't know you are lying, then of course you are not lying. If you really and honestly believe the moon is made of green cheese, or that the nearest beach is three miles away when it is really ten miles, and say so in that honest but mistaken belief, then you are not lying even though what you say is not true.

Lying consists in saying something that you know to be false, in such cases you do NOT know it to be false.

Ron Conte · #8 Feb 26, '12, 7:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LilyM

Not so. It is not a lie if I say something that I don't believe, but without the intent to deceive.

False.

There are three fonts of morality: intention, moral object, circumstances. Lying is intrinsically evil because it has an evil moral object. No intention or circumstance can change an evil moral object into a good moral object. Therefore, lying remains intrinsically evil, due to an evil moral object, regardless of intention.

The intention to deceive is common to most lies. But in principle, an evil moral object is sufficient to make any act intrinsically evil, regardless of intention.

However, to answer the OPs question, an act is only intrinsically evil if it is deliberately chosen (intentionally chosen, knowingly chosen). If I inadvertently assert what I know to be false, I have not deliberately chosen a disordered act, and so I have not sinned.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes lying as follows: " 'A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.' " This definition, quoted from Saint Augustine by the Catechism, is not sufficiently broad. Lying with the intention of deceiving is a subtype of lying. For all lying is intrinsically evil, and all intrinsically evil acts are immoral regardless of intention. The Catechism goes on to imply that lying is intrinsically evil: "Lying is the most direct offense against the truth….By its very nature, lying is to be condemned."

St. Augustine himself does not actually define lying as necessarily including the intention to deceive. Instead, he says that people do not agree as to whether it is a lie if the intention to deceive is lacking. He also recommends that people not lie, even without the intention to deceive.

So a better and more comprehensive definition of lying will not include mention of intention or circumstances: Lying is the direct and voluntary deprivation of truth from an assertion.

Acting in a show is not a type of lying because the actor is not asserting a falsehood to the audience. He is playing a role, as everyone understands.

hazmat · #9 Feb 26, '12, 11:04 am

depends on the definition. its either when you knowingly convey an untruth, or simply when you convey an untruth. whether someone knowingly does so or not, i call it a lie--im not sensitive when it comes to connotations, so i will say lie for brevity rather than a euphemism.

Katholish · #10 Feb 26, '12, 1:17 pm

Ron Conte,

Some acts are sinful only in their intent. The way in which you define lying, which you point out is contrary to that mentioned in the Catechism includes fiction as a lie... making J. R. R. Tolkein one of the biggest liars the world has ever known.

Not all untruths are lies. The intention to deceive is an integral part of the definition.

Lying is a subset of untruths in the same way that murder is a subset of killing. Not all killing is murder. One of the things which distinguishes murder is precisely the intentionality.