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  #16  
Old Feb 23, '12, 8:54 am
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ByzCathCantor ByzCathCantor is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traverse View Post
The Church did exist before the bible was fully written, but the Holy Spirit had a much more active role in those days, as the bible clearly states, to help everyone out. We don't have the same spiritual gifts in the same quantity as the first century Christians did back then and I feel the reason was because they didn't have the new testament to rely on.

We know they were temporary gifts.
So we no longer enjoy the gifts of the Holy Spirit? They were only temporary?

And how do we know this? was it written? or is that part of your tradition to believe this?
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  #17  
Old Feb 23, '12, 8:59 am
Luvtosew Luvtosew is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

Hey yours are right, I just get hot when I see these posts about how the CC is right about everything and protestants don't have the full truth. We all know the Church evolved, and well sometimes traditions that can't be undone are not a good thing. I don't know who the CC is anymore, its part jew and part christian I guess.
  #18  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:02 am
Traverse Traverse is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

ByzCathCantor:

I said we don't have "the same spiritual gifts."

I don't know anyone legitimate that speaks in tongues anyway. Do you? I did not say the Holy Spirit did not work in our lives, but the church described in the new testament had the gifts so prevalent that Paul had to discourage people from speaking in tongues out of turn and without interpretation lest they alienate visitors. This is not a circumstance we have to deal with today, I'm sure you'd agree.
Quote:
1 Corinthians 14:23
Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
And it's not tradition to believe that. I already showed you where in the scripture it was recorded that those particular gifts were temporary. Unless you consider it a manner of tradition to adhere to what the bible teaches on the matter.
  #19  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:03 am
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Zundrah Zundrah is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Luvtosew View Post
Hey yours are right, I just get hot when I see these posts about how the CC is right about everything and protestants don't have the full truth. We all know the Church evolved, and well sometimes traditions that can't be undone are not a good thing. I don't know who the CC is anymore, its part Jew and part Christian I guess.
It's Christianity with all the trimmings.
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  #20  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:05 am
Luvtosew Luvtosew is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

Too many trimmings.
  #21  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:05 am
CalCatholic CalCatholic is online now
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

Sola Scriptura is a man made tradition that is not found in the Bible, therefore to a good 'Bible only' believing Christian it should be considered 'un-biblical.'
  #22  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:07 am
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Zundrah Zundrah is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Luvtosew View Post
Too many trimmings.
But these trimmings are of our history. As you said, Jewish history.
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  #23  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:14 am
SonCatcher SonCatcher is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Zundrah View Post
But that would leave room for error.
That is why it is necessary to have an authoritative interpreter. The Catholic Church (East and West) is the only consistent authority to interpret the scripture she assembled.
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  #24  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:15 am
TexanKnight TexanKnight is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

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Originally Posted by Layman F View Post
Here's a quote that at first lends itself to sola scriptura, though it's easily dismantled:

2 Timothy 3:16-17. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

On the surface it looks like it says everything useful is in scripture.

A screwdriver is useful for working on a car, but isn't the only tool you should use. (Unless it's an old Beetle! LoL)
Actually, that is not what it says. There is no limitation. It simply says all Scripture is good. It never says "and nothing else is"
  #25  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:16 am
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Zundrah Zundrah is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

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Originally Posted by SonCatcher View Post
That is why it is necessary to have an authoritative interpreter. The Catholic Church (East and West) is the only consistent authority to interpret the scripture she assembled.
Well yes but when some reject that authority we are then back to square one again.
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  #26  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:19 am
SteveGC SteveGC is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traverse View Post
The Church did exist before the bible was fully written, but the Holy Spirit had a much more active role in those days, as the bible clearly states, to help everyone out. We don't have the same spiritual gifts in the same quantity as the first century Christians did back then and I feel the reason was because they didn't have the new testament to rely on.

We know they were temporary gifts.
Quote:
1 Corinthians 13:8-10
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
Your Corinthians quote refers to the end of gifts at the end of time, "when the perfect comes". He is emphasizing that love is the greatest of the virtues of faith, hope and love. In eternity, we will no longer require faith and hope, nor the gifts which are used to strengthen them (like prophesy, tongues, etc). Love will endure throughout eternity, however, and his point is to emphasize love now, in the temporal, above faith and hope.

He is not suggesting that all gifts in the temporal are short-lived in the temporal. There is no biblical support for the notion that the Holy Spirit's gifts are lesser today than they were in Acts, nor that He was "more active" then. Certainly His actions were pivotal and monumental...as we read about the institution of the Church and the gifts to it's first leaders. But this does not infer that the Holy Spirit's gifts then lessened as time went on.



Quote:
I'm not going to use this post to argue for or against sola scriptura, but to simply say that Church tradition must always be harmonious with the written word. I don't believe Catholics reject that notion that they should be in agreement. So I do take issue when a tradition is entirely unbiblical. Not to say that it's outright sinful, but that it has no basis in scriptural authority.

The pharisees has a lot of traditions and rituals they used that weren't necessarily sinful. Jesus called them on their hypocrisy, not their use of rituals necessarily. But the traditions they used didn't profit them anything either since it was never mandated. At least that is my understand of the matter.
Although you did not intend to make an argument for or against sola scriptura, this is entirely an argument FOR it.

The Pharisee's were chastised by Christ not because their tradition did not profit them anything, but because of their misuse and abuse of tradition (and authority). Jesus clearly recognized their authority with Judaism. He Himself followed the traditions of the Old Covenant faith during His lifetime before His final years of ministry. How they practiced their faith was of vital importance, and Christ's mission was not to abolish it, but to fulfill it. Thus, tradition was still to have a significant role in Christianity, and part of it was to be Sacred Scripture. So, if you're concerned that what you observe in the Catholic faith as a tradition doesn't seem to be embodied within your interpretation of scripture, just realize that scripture and tradition go hand in hand, so to understand one, you need the other. Neither are the final authority, but both are authoritative. The final authority rests with Christ, and this authority manifests itself in the form of His appointed (anointed) apostles and their ordained successors, as the Magisterium of His Church on earth.
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  #27  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:19 am
TexanKnight TexanKnight is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvtosew View Post
Hey yours are right, I just get hot when I see these posts about how the CC is right about everything and protestants don't have the full truth. We all know the Church evolved, and well sometimes traditions that can't be undone are not a good thing. I don't know who the CC is anymore, its part jew and part christian I guess.
and ALL God and truth.....
  #28  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:20 am
TexanKnight TexanKnight is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvtosew View Post
Too many trimmings.
I will let God know you think He does it wrong......
  #29  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:22 am
FaithfulAndTrue FaithfulAndTrue is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

Do we agree that the Bible is the word of God? I hope the answer is yes. If it is, then, do we agree that any tradition or ritual or action, etc, should not contradict the truths found within God's word? Again, I hope the answer is yes. That is the meaning of sola scriptura.

It doesn't have to "say X in the Bible" in order for X necessarily to be OK/true. But if the Bible says Y and Y contradicts X, then X is definitively not OK/true.

For example, the Bible doesn't say the Nicene Creed should be recited at every Mass. That doesn't mean that reciting the Nicene Creed is not OK. But if the Bible said, "You shall not recite the Nicene Creed at Mass," well then, that tradition would be out of line with the authority of the word of God and no authority of "Tradition" or authority of man/Church could make it OK. Agreed?
  #30  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:23 am
TexanKnight TexanKnight is offline
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Default Re: It's NOT in the Bible

I suppose that, for those who believe in the Biblically unsupported doctrine of Sola Scriptura, that they believe the Apostles who went forth after Christ to all the world to teach the Word of God were all wrong and taught badly since they did not have a Scriptura to teach solo-ly from.........
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