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  #91  
Old Feb 25, '12, 10:49 am
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Quote:
Originally Posted by karaleigh View Post
Catholic teaching is that the first human (biblically known as Adam) was both matter and spirit. To me this says...it should be understood that spirit is made up also equally of matter. Matter isn't necessarily simply flesh. Matter is also atoms, force, and light.

...It is true that God is Pure Spirit; however, the human nature He gave Adam and Eve is an unique union of the spiritual soul and the material anatomy. This sounds like you believe God is 'material anatomy'. If so, I disagree with you.

As a person who studies religion through the ligature studies, university scholar, I don't think God is meant to be simply spirit. Creating the universe from atoms, force, and light should say spirit is also of the same matter. But, that's me.
I will do my best to get back to this in the future.

In the meantime, God's nature is Pure Spirit. He did not give Adam and Eve His Pure Spirit nature. You seem to be referring to God as the same as Adam and Eve or Adam and Eve having the same nature as God. Perhaps the difficulty is in determining what spiritual is and what material/physical is. There also seems to be a difficulty in realizing that God as Creator can determine the nature of His creatures. He can give humans a very unique nature which unites a material anatomy and a spiritual soul as one unique union, one unique person, one unique human nature.

Hopefully, others will offer more explanations.
  #92  
Old Feb 25, '12, 11:19 am
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

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Originally Posted by Debora123 View Post
For anyone else who is still in doubt regarding the Church's position on the belief of evolution, please see below:



See full source here: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution
I checked the link.

I simply cannot believe that the current century's evolution topic which is section 37 was not included..

FYI - the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur are correct for the material presented in the link.
The Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur have nothing to do with missing information such as section 37 of Humani Generis http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pi...eneris_en.html The types or kinds of information are the responsibility of the authors.

All I can do is wonder why section 37 was omitted when section 36 was mentioned in the paragraph which begins with "Concerning human evolution,..."

What I can say is that the omission does not change the Catholic doctrine of monogenism which should be point 3 in Catholic theistic evolution.

Last edited by grannymh; Feb 25, '12 at 11:38 am.
  #93  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:34 pm
Debora123 Debora123 is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Quote:
Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
Those two points are from the late part of the 19th century and early part of the 20th century before the discoveries of Gregor Mendel, father of modern genetics, were merged with the early Darwin theories.

By 1950, Pope Pius XII warned Catholics that there is a third Catholic doctrine being denied by one of the evolution theories known as polygenism. Yet, for some reason, Catholics have been blindsided by molecular biology. My guess is that the failure of many, not all, Catholics to defend the Catholic doctrine of two, sole, parents of the human species can partly be blamed on the denial of original sin by the former Catholic theologian Matthew Fox and others who wanted to substitute allegory for the reality of both Adam and his sin. Ah, sweet symbolism is easier to handle than reality.

If one is going to hang on to theistic evolution, then one better learn the Catholic doctrines about human origin, human nature/soul and body, original sin, and the reason Jesus Christ hung bleeding on a cross.

In other words, Catholics living in the 21st century have point 3. to believe in.
3. All humanity descended from two, real, sole, parents. This is also known as monogenism.
I'm not sure how many times I have to keep posting what the Church's stance is on this before people actually understand it, but I'll do it again:

Quote:
There is a wide spectrum of permitted opinion within the Church on the issues surrounding evolution, from six-day, young-earth creationism to theistic evolution. There are very few absolute boundaries given by the Church on the matter. Two notable boundaries are that God created everything ex nihilo (Latin, "from nothing") and that each human soul is the special and immediate creation of God, given at the moment of conception. Within those boundaries, theologians are free to speculate on how to resolve scientific discoveries on man's origins with dogmas such as original sin.
See source here: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=354765
Quote:
The Catholic Position

What is the Catholic position concerning belief or unbelief in evolution? The question may never be finally settled, but there are definite parameters to what is acceptable Catholic belief.

Concerning cosmological evolution, the Church has infallibly defined that the universe was specially created out of nothing. Vatican I solemnly defined that everyone must "confess the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, as regards their whole substance, have been produced by God from nothing" (Canons on God the Creator of All Things, canon 5).

The Church does not have an official position on whether the stars, nebulae, and planets we see today were created at that time or whether they developed over time (for example, in the aftermath of the Big Bang that modern cosmologists discuss). However, the Church would maintain that, if the stars and planets did develop over time, this still ultimately must be attributed to God and his plan, for Scripture records: "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all their host [stars, nebulae, planets] by the breath of his mouth" (Ps. 33:6).

Concerning biological evolution, the Church does not have an official position on whether various life forms developed over the course of time. However, it says that, if they did develop, then they did so under the impetus and guidance of God, and their ultimate creation must be ascribed to him.

Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are.

While the Church permits belief in either special creation or developmental creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution.

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution
  #94  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:37 pm
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debora123 View Post
I'm not sure how many times I have to keep posting what the Church's stance is on this before people actually understand it, but I'll do it again:



See source here: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=354765


Source: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/adam-eve-and-evolution
Some things have to be reconciled such as Eve coming from Adam.
__________________
IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #95  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:37 pm
Debora123 Debora123 is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Quote:
Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
I checked the link.

I simply cannot believe that the current century's evolution topic which is section 37 was not included..

FYI - the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur are correct for the material presented in the link.
The Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur have nothing to do with missing information such as section 37 of Humani Generis http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pi...eneris_en.html The types or kinds of information are the responsibility of the authors.

All I can do is wonder why section 37 was omitted when section 36 was mentioned in the paragraph which begins with "Concerning human evolution,..."

What I can say is that the omission does not change the Catholic doctrine of monogenism which should be point 3 in Catholic theistic evolution.
Haha, well all I can say is this:

If you have a problem with what CAF's apologists and CAF's encyclopedia are saying about this, you might want to write to CAF and tell them you think they are giving out heretical information.

And while you're at it you might also want to write to the Bishop who approved of the information:
Quote:
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
  #96  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:49 pm
Debora123 Debora123 is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalo View Post
Some things have to be reconciled such as Eve coming from Adam.
Well then I suggest you also write to the Catholic Answers sources I posted and complain to them for not giving out full, correct information regarding the Church's stance on evolution.
  #97  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:50 pm
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debora123 View Post
Haha, well all I can say is this:

If you have a problem with what CAF's apologists and CAF's encyclopedia are saying about this, you might want to write to CAF and tell them you think they are giving out heretical information.

And while you're at it you might also want to write to the Bishop who approved of the information:
If you are going to go there then I match with:

The Doctrines of Genesis 1-11 -A Compendium and Defense of
Traditional Catholic Theology on Origins,


You can contact the bishop who wrote the foreward.

Much more here - Faith Resources:
__________________
IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #98  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:00 pm
Debora123 Debora123 is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalo View Post
If you are going to go there then I match with:

The Doctrines of Genesis 1-11 -A Compendium and Defense of
Traditional Catholic Theology on Origins,


You can contact the bishop who wrote the foreward.

Much more here - Faith Resources:
One small difference.

In this source he writes his opinion. He doesn't write what the Church's stance on the issue actually is. I have no need to contact him and complain because he has every right to have his opinions on the origin of the world, and his opinion is not contrary to Church teaching, just as theistic evolution is not contrary to Church teaching.

What we need are sources that actually, clearly and objectively state the Church's stance on the subject. Which I have already provided for everyone's convenience.
  #99  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:02 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debora123 View Post
Haha, well all I can say is this:

If you have a problem with what CAF's apologists and CAF's encyclopedia are saying about this, you might want to write to CAF and tell them you think they are giving out heretical information.
If you would kindly reread my explanation of Nihil Obstat found in post 93, you will then understand that I did not say that the link was heretical. As one who is very familiar with Nihil Obstat, (I did obtain one for something I wrote) I can assure you that what was presented was in accord with Catholic teaching. What I did point out is that additional information could have been presented since it was available.

Quote:
And while you're at it you might also want to write to the Bishop who approved of the information:
Actually, when you come across a recent book that has the explanation of Nihil Obstat, you will discover that the Censor Librorum (who gives the Nihil Obstat) does not necessarily have to agree with the information. Here is the paragraph which follows the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur.

"The Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur are official declarations that a book or pamphlet is free from doctrinal or moral error. No Implication is contained therein that those who have granted the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur agree with the contents, opinions, or statements expressed." Emphasis mine.
  #100  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:06 pm
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debora123 View Post
One small difference.

In this source he writes his opinion. He doesn't write what the Church's stance on the issue actually is. I have no need to contact him and complain because he has every right to have his opinions on the origin of the world, and his opinion is not contrary to Church teaching, just as theistic evolution is not contrary to Church teaching.

What we need are sources that actually, clearly and objectively state the Church's stance on the subject. Which I have already provided for everyone's convenience.
You should review the sources he taps into. In any case, it has been shown on these forums over and over again what the Church constantly believed and taught.

It is up to those who disagree to show magisterial document that shows the errors.
__________________
IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #101  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:08 pm
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buffalo buffalo is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Here is Dogma:

  1. The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
  2. The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
  3. Man consists of two essential parts--a material body and a spiritual soul. (De fide.)
  4. The rational soul is per se the essential form of the body. (De fide.)
  5. Every human being possesses an individual soul. (De fide.)
  6. Every individual soul was immediately created out of nothing by God. (Sent. Certa.)
  7. A creature has the capacity to receive supernatural gifts. (Sent. communis.)
  8. The Supernatural presupposes Nature. (Sent communis.)
  9. God has conferred on man a supernatural Destiny. (De fide.)
  10. Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. (De fide.)
  11. The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
  12. The donum immortalitatis, i.e.,bodily immortality. (De fide.)
  13. The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
  14. The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
  15. Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
  16. Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
  17. Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
  18. Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
  19. Adam's sin is transmitted to his posterity, not by imitation, but by descent. (De fide.)
  20. Original Sin consists in the deprivation of grace caused by the free act of sin committed by the head of the race. (Sent. communis.)
  21. Original sin is transmitted by natural generation. (De fide.)
  22. In the state of original sin man is deprived of sanctifying grace and all that this implies, as well as of the preternatural gifts of integrity. (De fide in regard to Sanctifying Grace and the Donum Immortalitatus. D788 et seq.)
  23. Souls who depart this life in the state of original sin are excluded from the Beatific Vision of God. (De fide.)
__________________
IDvolution - God "breathed" the super language of DNA into the "kinds" in the creative act. Buffalo

"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is a thought of God."

“Science presupposes the trustworthy, intelligent structure of matter, the ‘design’ of creation.”

"A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well- being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth."
Pope Benedict XVI

  #102  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:17 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debora123 View Post
What we need are sources that actually, clearly and objectively state the Church's stance on the subject. Which I have already provided for everyone's convenience.
The source you provided contains two important points. What needs to be added is the information regarding monogenism and polygenism.

Catholics are not permitted to accept biological opinions (polygenism in the 21st century) which deny the reality of two, sole, founders of the human race, biblically known as Adam and Eve. The Catholic doctrine is known as monogenism.

Sources: St. Paul; St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4.1; Council of Trent DS 1511-1512; Humani Generis Section 37; Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edtion paragraphs 355 - 421.
  #103  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:29 pm
Al Moritz Al Moritz is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Quote:
Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
The source you provided contains two important points. What needs to be added is the information regarding monogenism and polygenism.

Catholics are not permitted to accept biological opinions (polygenism in the 21st century) which deny the reality of two, sole, founders of the human race, biblically known as Adam and Eve. The Catholic doctrine is known as monogenism.

Sources: St. Paul; St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4.1; Council of Trent DS 1511-1512; Humani Generis Section 37; Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edtion paragraphs 355 - 421.
Well, we have discussed monogenism of humans before, and yes, it is compatible with biological polygenism:

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....postcount=1327
  #104  
Old Feb 25, '12, 2:05 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Debora123 View Post
Haha, well all I can say is this:

If you have a problem with what CAF's apologists and CAF's encyclopedia are saying about this, you might want to write to CAF and tell them you think they are giving out heretical information.
As a writer, loyal to Catholic Answers, they were some of the first people I contacted more than a year ago when I started researching the Catholic doctrine of monogenism in the 21st century. I also have been in touch with two of the writers Michelle Arnold recommended. Since I was the researcher, I asked for information and shared some of my observations.

While the four-letter word heretical is an eye catcher, there was absolutely no reason for me to use it with Catholic Answers. I still have no reason to use that word as I explained in
post 100.

In addition, I have been in contact with professionals in philosophy and science. There is definitely a need to restate the Catholic doctrine of two, real, sole, human parents of humanity. Even when articles on this subject are published, the prime sources for the Catholic position is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraph 390 within the context of paragraphs 386 - 421, and Humani Generis, section 37.

Blessings,
granny

The quest for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
  #105  
Old Feb 25, '12, 3:21 pm
Debora123 Debora123 is offline
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Default Re: if not evolution....

Quote:
Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
The source you provided contains two important points. What needs to be added is the information regarding monogenism and polygenism.

Catholics are not permitted to accept biological opinions (polygenism in the 21st century) which deny the reality of two, sole, founders of the human race, biblically known as Adam and Eve. The Catholic doctrine is known as monogenism.

Sources: St. Paul; St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4.1; Council of Trent DS 1511-1512; Humani Generis Section 37; Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edtion paragraphs 355 - 421.
ALL the sources I provided are right here from Catholic Answers. If you think they have some important, critical information missing, then I would definitely contact them and let them know.
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