Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #31  
Old Feb 23, '12, 6:46 pm
Luvtosew Luvtosew is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: September 1, 2009
Posts: 2,023
Religion: Christian
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brb3 View Post
Naturally faith is first and formative .... our faith in the Logos, results in our justification, not of legalistic works, lest anyman boast. But, once we are justified by faith ... we must walk after Christ, following in committment to the Beatitudes [Highest Law, that of Love/Charity]. Sanctification MUST occur ... for us to persist, and be enabled to persevere. Grace upon grace must continue, or we will grow weary in well-doing and draw back into unbelief. Gracious works, must be demonstrated by him/her of faith ... for theory alone will not transform our lives, or that of those we meet. Paul, James, Peter, all the ECF's ... all stress this as the essential teaching/meaning of Christ, in saying "take up your cross and follow me". This is where Catholicism excels .. via the Sacraments of Confession [which recovers us] & Eucharist [which preserves us] and ONLY via the Church, will we have a sure hope of salvation assurance.
I will agree with all you said. Auricle confession is the best thing in my opinion of being Catholic (the main reason I hate to leave) and the Lords Supper should be given at Mass, even protestant masses. I have no problem with anything you say, we must follow Christ and fatih without works is dead, if one is Christian they will treat their fellow man like themself. I also agree one should have a Church, see we agree.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old Feb 23, '12, 9:50 pm
Hokomai Hokomai is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: December 20, 2004
Posts: 2,572
Religion: Not a believer
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clmowry View Post
I'm not so sure. People do irrational things all the time.

I'm afraid that many who leave the Church "know" in their hearts that it is the one true Church.
i have never understood what this means.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old Feb 24, '12, 5:00 am
brb3 brb3 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: January 18, 2010
Posts: 3,972
Religion: catholic
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvtosew View Post

I will agree with all you said. Auricle confession is the best thing in my opinion of being Catholic (the main reason I hate to leave) and the Lords Supper should be given at Mass, even protestant masses. I have no problem with anything you say, we must follow Christ and fatih without works is dead, if one is Christian they will treat their fellow man like themself. I also agree one should have a Church, see we agree.
Then, by all means be / remain a Catholic. The Protestant faiths have nothing we Catholic lack ... and lack plenty we have.

As was said from ancient times ... "Whereever is the Catholic Church, there is Christ". We today need to recapture that enthusiasm for our 'glorious' Church of 2000 years ! To leave/reject her is take leave of our better judgment, life experience in her, and 2000 years of continuous testimony of the Saints to her.

Start identifying yourself as Catholic Christian once again ... let her light shine from your rooftop.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old Feb 24, '12, 5:15 am
Luvtosew Luvtosew is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: September 1, 2009
Posts: 2,023
Religion: Christian
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brb3 View Post
Then, by all means be / remain a Catholic. The Protestant faiths have nothing we Catholic lack ... and lack plenty we have.

As was said from ancient times ... "Whereever is the Catholic Church, there is Christ". We today need to recapture that enthusiasm for our 'glorious' Church of 2000 years ! To leave/reject her is take leave of our better judgment, life experience in her, and 2000 years of continuous testimony of the Saints to her.

Start identifying yourself as Catholic Christian once again ... let her light shine from your rooftop.
There are many good things about the CC but if you see my post 7 you'll understand more.
I do wish I could but I"m at the crossroads unfortuately.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old Feb 24, '12, 6:52 am
Kay Cee Kay Cee is offline
Regular Member
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: April 22, 2005
Posts: 2,474
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvtosew View Post
What about someone who leaves because they just realized the Mass is a Sacrifice of Jesus and also learns about transubstantiation, and in her heart can't come to grips with neither, what about her??

should she stay and receive the Eucharist anyway?
You're not clear about why those two things are problems, but if you're talking about yourself having trouble accepting them, may I suggest starting a thread about them? Perhaps you can come to acceptance with a little help from some very knowledgable folks here.

Anyway, God bless you in your journey.
__________________
What would an atheist do if he witnessed a miracle? Read my novel, Nearer the Dawn, at http://www.wattpad.com/story/12468260 or on Kindle. All net profits are donated to charity.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:09 am
clmowry clmowry is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2004
Posts: 2,695
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundrah View Post
I'm sure the church doesn't actually teach that salvation can only come from itself.
Yes I believe the church does clearly teach that "Outside the Church there is no salvation."

Of course as with all theological issues you'll need about 100 pages on the subject to get through all of the subtleties surrounding that simple statement.

My executive summary version would go something like: The Church is the normal way by which Christ has chosen to bring salvation to the world, but He is not limited to bringing salvation only to those who are formally visible members of His
Church.

Chuck
__________________
Take this love, therefore, as the end that is set before you, to which you are to refer all that you say, and, whatever you narrate, narrate it in such a manner that he to whom you are discoursing on hearing may believe, on believing may hope, on hoping may love. - St. Augustine
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:42 am
SmallCcatholic SmallCcatholic is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: November 1, 2011
Posts: 39
Religion: christian
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brb3 View Post
Start identifying yourself as Catholic Christian once again ... let her light shine from your rooftop.
All followers of Christ should let there light shine..The CC(individual followers) needs to be be a bolder witness on the evangelistic front..I have been walking with Christ for over 40 years and alive for 61..In all those years, even living/working Italian catholic town, I never was approached by a christian of the catholic persuasion to talk to me about Christ and His plan of salvation. It was always evangelical bible church believers or JW's...You know what I read that started the Holy Spirit's deep work in me, a few verses in a chick tract...( I know that's anathema to you)
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:48 am
MrZetterlund's Avatar
MrZetterlund MrZetterlund is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: October 27, 2009
Posts: 824
Religion: Ex-Baptist Catholic
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvtosew View Post
What about someone who leaves because they just realized the Mass is a Sacrifice of Jesus and also learns about transubstantiation, and in her heart can't come to grips with neither, what about her??

should she stay and receive the Eucharist anyway?
In my opinion, denial of the Real Presence and transubstansiation is un-Christian, regardless if they leave the Church:

"Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body." -1 Corinthains 11:27-29.

When I first read this as a Protestant, I decided that you're either Catholic/Orthodox, or you're not Christian.....
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old Feb 24, '12, 8:54 am
SmallCcatholic SmallCcatholic is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: November 1, 2011
Posts: 39
Religion: christian
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrZetterlund View Post
"Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body." -1 Corinthains 11:27-29.

When I first read this as a Protestant, I decided that you're either Catholic/Orthodox, or you're not Christian.....

If you read the background of what was going on there I don't think it were dealing with transubstantiation..It more like they were partying with the bread/wine that was reserved for communion and others were being left out.....Is there any catholic commentary on these verses..
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old Feb 24, '12, 9:01 am
clmowry clmowry is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2004
Posts: 2,695
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai View Post
i have never understood what this means.
I'm not sure what specifically, you don't understand? But I guess I could expound upon the statement.

No one can ever really know with absolute mathematical certainty that some philosophical of theological concept is the truth.

Though I suppose that direct divine revelation could leave you with no doubt, but it would still not provide you with any intellectual proof.

I “know in my heart” for example that I “love” my daughter and that this is the truth. I have no doubt.

I can’t prove that too you. I can’t even prove it to myself.

When it comes to theological (and I guess any other very complex issue outside of observable physical sciences) someone can at best, be reasonably certain that something is true. They may not have explicit proof, but they also have no proof for any explicit objections to the belief that they can articulate.

The preponderance of the evidence and their conscience “tells them” that it is true.

It agrees with the nature God has given them.

But they cannot “know” with absolute certainty until they stand before God and He reveals Himself to them.

I think many people are “know” in this way that there is a God. But they hold out for that impossible “proof”, not because they “really” don’t believe that there is a God, but because it would force very inconvenient conclusions if they did.

Moving away from the theological realm and grasping at what’s probably a poor analogy: Let’s say someone decide to have sex with someone they meet in a bar in Haiti.

They “know in their hearts” that if that someone is willing to have sex with them, it is quite possible they were willing to have sex with other strangers. Given their locations it is quite likely that person may be carrying a STD that could result in their suffering, or even their death.

They know all of this to very likely be the truth, but they don’t have blood test results sitting in front of them that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person is carrying a disease that could kill them, (well and the test could be wrong even if they did) and they don’t know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if they do that disease will be transferred to them, so they just assume that none of that could IS true, cause well that would get in the way of what feels good.

There is plenty of “evidence” of the “truth” and that their choice against that truth could put them through “hell” but they make that choice anyway, cause well, they didn’t have any proof.

Help?

Chuck
__________________
Take this love, therefore, as the end that is set before you, to which you are to refer all that you say, and, whatever you narrate, narrate it in such a manner that he to whom you are discoursing on hearing may believe, on believing may hope, on hoping may love. - St. Augustine
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old Feb 24, '12, 9:11 am
tbcrawford's Avatar
tbcrawford tbcrawford is offline
Forum Elder
Prayer Warrior
 
Join Date: April 2, 2009
Posts: 157,518
Religion: catholic
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundrah View Post
Yes you're right. It's just like how people will abandon Christianity itself as a whole.

One of my mothers old neighbors use to bring the Eucharist to disabled people at their own homes. She ended up divorcing her husband even though after talking with the priest and he had advised against it. She did so because he was very violent. Anyway, the way people treated her afterwards was horrific. So in a sense it wasn't about Church teaching maybe, but because of how she remembers being treated by them.

She's not even Christian now.
Thankyou Zundrah for sharing this

This is so very sad but a useful example of what I meant.I am so sorry for the way this lady was treated,my heart goes out to her.Priest's would now teach to put safety of mother and children first and to leave the abusive situation.As regards divorce the best thing probably would have been to let her husband divorce her ( if that was his inclination) and live a 'separated' life.The most important part would be to leave the dangerous situation.There should have been no reflection on her though as she was in a very difficult and dangerous situation.How sad that she was not supported.She would have remained happily in her faith had the priest supported her more positively. God knows her heart and loves her.

When I was at convent school I was taught many things and one of those was that when we wear the uniform of the school, everything we do, good or bad reflects back on the school as a whole. So if I was impolite or uncaring to a stranger (or worse) it would encourage the stranger to think poorly of my school.By one person's actions a whole reputation can be won or lost.

When I go into the world on a daily basis I have responsibility for my actions not just for myself but to God as a practising Christian/Catholic.We each have something we belong to whether a school/business/work environment/ family/faith etc that by our actions reflect back on those we represent.

My opinion is it is not for us to judge others reasons for why they have fallen away but it is our responsibility to ensure we reflect Gods love in our actions deeds and words.

When I go out into the world I am Gods representative.Of course I make mistakes and have many failings but I keep trying to encourage others by my actions of (hopefully) love to coem to know God and His love for them.

I invite friends who I know are lapsed catholics to attend Mass and try to show them acts of kindness.Some of those who are lapsed are hurting due to the actions of members of the catholic church....it is hard to undo hurt and damage but not impossible.

Whatever we as Christians do in our daily lives we reflect Jesus.If we are good and kind to people we come into contact with we reflect the Love Our Blessed Lord has for each of us.
When we hurt another person by our words or actions we not only hurt Our Lord but also give a poor example and reflect a poor opinion of His church.
__________________

"Whatsoever you do for the least of my brothers and sisters you do unto me"
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old Feb 24, '12, 9:18 am
SmallCcatholic SmallCcatholic is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: November 1, 2011
Posts: 39
Religion: christian
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

[quote=tbcrawford;9000168

Whatever we as Christians do in our daily lives we reflect Jesus.If we are good and kind to people we come into contact with we reflect the Love Our Blessed Lord has for each of us.
When we hurt another person by our words or actions we not only hurt Our Lord but also give a poor example and reflect a poor opinion of His church.[/QUOTE]


AMEN !!!!!! This is good preaching Brother..
Colossians 3:17
And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old Feb 24, '12, 9:46 am
MrZetterlund's Avatar
MrZetterlund MrZetterlund is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: October 27, 2009
Posts: 824
Religion: Ex-Baptist Catholic
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmallCcatholic View Post
If you read the background of what was going on there I don't think it were dealing with transubstantiation..It more like they were partying with the bread/wine that was reserved for communion and others were being left out.....Is there any catholic commentary on these verses..
I don't think you're being intellectually honest about this verse. It clearly refers to and portrays the Eucharist as something so sacred that eating and drinking it without discerning the body of Christ would actually cause one to eat unworthily of it. The things you have listed were an issue to this community in prior verses. However, this one is dealing with a different issue entirely on the same subject.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old Feb 24, '12, 9:53 am
SmallCcatholic SmallCcatholic is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: November 1, 2011
Posts: 39
Religion: christian
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrZetterlund View Post
I don't think you're being intellectually honest about this verse. It clearly refers to and portrays the Eucharist as something so sacred that eating and drinking it without discerning the body of Christ would actually cause one to eat unworthily of it. The things you have listed were an issue to this community in prior verses. However, this one is dealing with a different issue entirely on the same subject.

Intellectually honest ??? I don't claim to be a scholar..I read those verses more times than you are old to read what was going on in the background..What do scholars commentary say about the chapter.. Does the Orthodox teach this is about consubstantiation ? How about the persons heart being pure before the Lord before He partakes,,,
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old Feb 24, '12, 9:53 am
Bezant Bezant is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 7, 2010
Posts: 2,671
Religion: Latin Catholic leaning East
Default Re: People that leave/reject the Church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clmowry View Post
I don't think "every" Catholic leaves the church because of pride.

Neither do I think "every" Catholic leaves the Church because they become convinced that the Church is wrong about some teaching.
My mistake. I misread your post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clmowry View Post
If I had to speculate, I would speculate that most people who leave / join a church do so because it "feels" good not because of some serious theoloigical discernment.

Chuck
Yes, sometimes this is true, I think more so when people change denominations, rather than when they convert to a different religion.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8349Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: svid2
5088CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: eschator83
4408Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3858SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany
3675Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: DesertSister62
3268Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3245Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
3218Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: memphian
3085For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: flower lady



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 7:29 pm.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.