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  #16  
Old Feb 25, '12, 7:54 am
Anna Claire Anna Claire is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

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Originally Posted by YoungTradCath View Post
Because said mistake indicates that either there was no written text to be read from or that the woman just chose not to read it exactly if there was one. Can the situation be rectified in the future? Absolutely.
The rite for liturgy of the word with communion has not been updated with words from the new roman missal. I don't know when that will happen. I bring communion to the hospital and follow a formula. I'm not sure I should change the words that are given for this rite but i have...only because some people were noticing and correcting me. It was a distraction.
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  #17  
Old Feb 25, '12, 8:05 am
NewEnglandPriest NewEnglandPriest is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

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Originally Posted by YoungTradCath View Post
Because said mistake indicates that either there was no written text to be read from or that the woman just chose not to read it exactly if there was one. Can the situation be rectified in the future? Absolutely.
She could have been reading from a text that was prepared with those words or perhaps she simply read the wrong line (it can get confusing with all the options). Either way, "the Lord be with you" is not exactly the words of consecration or simulation of any sacrament so it would be out of proportion to be greatly upset about it.
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  #18  
Old Feb 25, '12, 8:24 am
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YoungTradCath YoungTradCath is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

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Originally Posted by Anna Claire View Post
The rite for liturgy of the word with communion has not been updated with words from the new roman missal. I don't know when that will happen. I bring communion to the hospital and follow a formula. I'm not sure I should change the words that are given for this rite but i have...only because some people were noticing and correcting me. It was a distraction.
But it's just a new translation, not a reformulation. No matter how badly you translate, you can't get "The Lord be with you" out of any Latin except "Dominus vobiscum." My point is that the current (in the future to be replaced) translation of the communion service does not contain that phrase to begin with if a lay person is doing it.
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  #19  
Old Feb 25, '12, 8:39 am
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Filii Dei Filii Dei is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

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Originally Posted by steamboatp View Post
I became angry because a lay woman was leading the service with some of the SAME WORDS as a priest would have said at Mass. I noticed that when she said, “The Lord be with you”, the congregation responded with, “and also with you” (the old translation). I suspect that people subconsciously used the old translation to distinguish between the situation of responding to a lay woman vs. responding to a priest in the mass.
I do not suspect the latter. It's probably just people returning to their habits and reverting to something familiar ("and also with you") in the face of something unfamiliar (lay presider), rather than deliberately or subconsciously protesting the fact that she was using the wrong text for the circumstances. I probably would, considering I have never had the misfortune of having to attend a communion service in lieu of a proper and valid Mass. You know how typical laypeople are like.

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Originally Posted by steamboatp View Post
After I received ashes, I got especially angry because stood on the platform next to the altar (though not behind the altar) and held up the host and said something like, This is the Lamb of God; blessed are those called to his supper. I chose not to receive communion.
It is natural that you are angry. I would be, too. However, I fear your angry may stem from your assumption that the lay minister was trying to usurp the role of the priest. It is possible, as NewEnglandPries has mentioned, that she was simply using the wrong texts, and could be a newbie who was unfamiliar with the role of a presider at a service and recited it without realising the gravitas of what she did. It is true that there are many nutcases who wish to undermine the hierarchy of the Church, but it is very uncharitable of us to assume that a fellow brother or sister in Christ has that same radical disposition.

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Originally Posted by steamboatp View Post
The next morning I sent the pastor an email saying I was confused about what exactly the service was. He responded simply (but in a friendly way) that it was a Communion service with the Liturgy of the Word and the distribution of ashes. (Canon law limited him to saying two masses per day, which he had already done.) I was tired of being angry, and stressed out from work, so I just said thanks for the clarification and let the topic drop.
Did you even notify him that the wrong lines were used? We should not expect him to tell you any more than what he already did if you did not make it clear what exactly you were confused about. He probably thought you were asking about the intended nature of the service, and not about a particular (or any) abuse committed at the communion service.

In any case, I implore that you exercise charity in your judgement. The most effective course of action now is to raise the issue with the lay minister and the pastor, so they are aware of the problem and can ensure that it will not happen again. Fraternal correction done with humility - especially in this season of Lent - is one of the most loving deeds we can perform for one another as fellow Catholics.
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  #20  
Old Feb 25, '12, 8:45 am
Anna Claire Anna Claire is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

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Originally Posted by YoungTradCath View Post
But it's just a new translation, not a reformulation. No matter how badly you translate, you can't get "The Lord be with you" out of any Latin except "Dominus vobiscum." My point is that the current (in the future to be replaced) translation of the communion service does not contain that phrase to begin with if a lay person is doing it.
Well my formula does have "the Lord be with you" and it's from the Vatican website. And why wouldn't it be ok for a lay person? It's not a formal blessing.
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  #21  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:01 pm
hannajomar hannajomar is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

It sounds as though the woman was an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, or EMHC. Men and women are permitted to be EMHC's. At my parish, of about 20 EMHC's, 2 are men. Both of those men are there with their wives.

A Holy Communion service is a form of Liturgy of the Church. Yes, it is very possible for a EMHC to overstep their position, but what you described is allowed. We do say, "the Lord be with you." And we also say "This is the Lamb of God..." before distributing Holy Communion. I should specify, I distribute Holy Communion in nursing homes, and have never been involved in a service outside of that environment. But I don't see why it would be any different.

To any men who have a problem with this, my only suggestion is that you become a priest, deacon or EMHC. Then us women wouldn't be needed to do this. I am not a feminist. I agree, it would be better for men to be lectors and alter servers. But if none are willing and my pastor asks me to do this, I will honor his request.
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  #22  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:29 pm
Anna Claire Anna Claire is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

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Originally Posted by hannajomar View Post
It sounds as though the woman was an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, or EMHC. Men and women are permitted to be EMHC's. At my parish, of about 20 EMHC's, 2 are men. Both of those men are there with their wives.

A Holy Communion service is a form of Liturgy of the Church. Yes, it is very possible for a EMHC to overstep their position, but what you described is allowed. We do say, "the Lord be with you." And we also say "This is the Lamb of God..." before distributing Holy Communion. I should specify, I distribute Holy Communion in nursing homes, and have never been involved in a service outside of that environment. But I don't see why it would be any different.

To any men who have a problem with this, my only suggestion is that you become a priest, deacon or EMHC. Then us women wouldn't be needed to do this. I am not a feminist. I agree, it would be better for men to be lectors and alter servers. But if none are willing and my pastor asks me to do this, I will honor his request.
Your post was a positive one until I read your last paragraph. I am stunned by the number of posts on this site that are against women being involved in liturgy...and im not talking about the priesthood.
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  #23  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:50 pm
hannajomar hannajomar is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

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Originally Posted by Anna Claire View Post
Your post was a positive one until I read your last paragraph. I am stunned by the number of posts on this site that are against women being involved in liturgy...and im not talking about the priesthood.
We might need another thread to tackle this...
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  #24  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:29 pm
hannajomar hannajomar is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

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Originally Posted by YoungTradCath View Post
But it's just a new translation, not a reformulation. No matter how badly you translate, you can't get "The Lord be with you" out of any Latin except "Dominus vobiscum." My point is that the current (in the future to be replaced) translation of the communion service does not contain that phrase to begin with if a lay person is doing it.
The text I have does say "the Lord be with you." Do you have a link or something so I can compare what I have to what you have?
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  #25  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:50 pm
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Ohana Ohana is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

We have a communion service quite regularly one day of the week led by a young man. It often includes a penitential rite - usually the confiteor- without the "absolution phrase" usually said by the priest. We have readings, a brief homily that he reads followed by prayers of the failthful and the sign of peace and communion. There is nothing that even suggests that he is concecrating the hosts as it is very clear that these were concecrated at a previous mass by the priest. These are all done in a respectful and reverent manner. All seem to be appropriate to a community of believers. I do not get that there are any infractions in all this. We are quite a conservative parish.
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  #26  
Old Feb 25, '12, 2:08 pm
John Lilburne John Lilburne is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

For a lay minister from "Rite of Distributing Holy Communion Outside Mass":

"If the minister is not a priest or deacon, he greets those present with these or similar words:
Brothers and sisters,
the Lord invites us (you) to his table
to share in the body of Christ:
bless him for his goodness.

The people answer: Blessed be God for ever.

Another form of greeting, no. 189, may be chosen.

Any other customary forms of greeting from scripture may be used."

(The Rites Volume One, Liturgical Press, 1990, ISBN: 0-8146-6015-0, pages 649-650. Holy Communion and the Worship of the Eucharist Outside of Mass).

It has, on page 689:

"2. FORMS OF GREETING
189.
The grace and peace of God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

The people answer:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

or:
And also with you."

For the ceremony approved for the U.S.A. in "Book of Blessings", Chapter 52, "Order for the Blessing and Distribution of Ashes Ash Wednesday". The instructions are:

"1662 A lay minister greets those present in the following words:
Praised be the God of grace, mercy, and peace. Blessed be God for ever.
R. Blessed be God for ever."

(Book of Blessings, Liturgical Press, Minnesota, 1989, ISBN 0-8146-1875-8, page 622.)

This ceremony is not in the Latin edition of the Book of Blessings. I am only aware of it being part of the U.S.A. edition.

So the argument could go: this ceremony was in the U.S.A. and so following ceremony approved for this country for distributing ashes, only one greeting is given, to be used by a lay minister.

An alternative argument would be: this ceremony is the Rite of Distributing Communion Outside of Mass. The official liturgical book gives wide latitude in the greeting with terms such as "these or similar words" and "Any other customary forms of greeting from scripture may be used."
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  #27  
Old Feb 25, '12, 2:14 pm
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1AugustSon7 1AugustSon7 is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

1. Since when were women allowed to supplant male roles in the Church such as doing anything like leading the Church in a ceremony? You can't possibly tell me there were no worthy men to perform such a role in the parish.

2. Since when was a Communion Service not either Holy Mass or Extreme Unction or some other sort of viaticum? I am completely shocked to learn that apparently now I have to distinguish between "communion service" and holy Mass. Can someone give me a history lesson here as to this? Is it peculiar to Ash Wednesdays?
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  #28  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:02 pm
Anna Claire Anna Claire is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

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1. Since when were women allowed to supplant male roles in the Church such as doing anything like leading the Church in a ceremony? You can't possibly tell me there were no worthy men to perform such a role in the parish.
Pardon me but there is a word for this comment..."bigotted" are you really calling yourself Catholic and Christian?

2. Since when was a Communion Service not either Holy Mass or Extreme Unction or some other sort of viaticum? I am completely shocked to learn that apparently now I have to distinguish between "communion service" and holy Mass. Can someone give me a
history lesson here as to this? Is it peculiar to Ash Wednesday?
You are fortunate indeed if you never have had to experience a communion service. We should only need this rite if there is no priest available for Eucharistic celebrations. Even then it sends the wrong message that communion is the only important part of the mass.

?
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  #29  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:17 pm
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CB Catholic CB Catholic is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

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Originally Posted by 1AugustSon7 View Post
1. Since when were women allowed to supplant male roles in the Church such as doing anything like leading the Church in a ceremony? You can't possibly tell me there were no worthy men to perform such a role in the parish.

2. Since when was a Communion Service not either Holy Mass or Extreme Unction or some other sort of viaticum? I am completely shocked to learn that apparently now I have to distinguish between "communion service" and holy Mass. Can someone give me a history lesson here as to this? Is it peculiar to Ash Wednesdays?
Have you been away from the Church for a while and are just coming back? Or haven't you been paying attention to things? These things have been occurring for the past 40 years or so, and they are not illicit. I am "shocked" there are people that don't know about Lay Leaders of Prayer and Communion Services in the absence of a priest unless they haven't been around the Church for a while or live in isolated circumstances.

You may be indignant, but these things are perfectly legal.
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  #30  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:44 pm
steamboatp steamboatp is offline
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Default Re: words of communion service same as words at mass

Wow, there are quite a lot of posts in a short time! Thank you, everyone for your sound advice. Thank you for sharing your thoughts- it really helps me. Also, the detailed legal info is great.

I do have several clarifications / answers to make.

@ C B Catholic
I was not angry at the lay minister as a person. It could have been another lay person and I still would have been angry.

@ zenith15
I would still have been angry if it were a male layperson, but probably not quite as angry. I could not stop from thinking, she sounds like a priest. People could easily think, oh, all the priest does is say particular words. She is saying some of those words, therefore why can’t women be priests.

My thoughts continued, despite my efforts to stop them: the reason women can’t be priests is because Catholic theology says there is an intrinsic connection between fatherhood and the sacramental priesthood. Thus the reason women can’t be priests is because women can’t be fathers. Most people don’t know that; therefore they say the reason must be an excessively conservative, if not outright sexist cultural milieu that the Catholic Church has supposedly created.

Anyway, without lots of explanation, people could easily come away from this service with the impression that women could be priests if the Catholic Church “wanted” to allow it.

@Filii Dei
No, I did not notify the pastor about suspected abuses, because I don’t know much about the details of the liturgy, and I prefer to think that the pastor does care about following the Church’s rules. Only if he gave me a callous answer did I intend to give specifics. Since he told me that canon law prohibited him from saying more than two masses a day, that shows he cares about the Church’s rules. Therefore I do not presume to correct him on such matters. I did want to convey, though, that at least one person was confused by the service.
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