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  #1  
Old Feb 25, '12, 7:19 am
Ubenedictus Ubenedictus is offline
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Default I need help!

Im having a discussion with an excatholic on the immaculate conception, he certainly dont agree that we can recieve grace before we sin. He sits on passages that say christ save sinners, salvation is for sinner, i nid passage that has anytin like 'God can prevent me frm sin'.
He certainly refers to logic as tradition of men, so ill apreciate bible passages. Thanks.
Ubenedictus
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  #2  
Old Feb 25, '12, 7:30 am
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: I nid help!

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. Gal 5:16

This is the very reason we need the New Covenant, because by the Atonement, Jesus' reconciliation of God with man, and then by our remaining in communion with God, we can overcome sin-and its consequence, death.
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  #3  
Old Feb 25, '12, 8:03 am
Ubenedictus Ubenedictus is offline
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Default Re: I nid help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. Gal 5:16

This is the very reason we need the New Covenant, because by the Atonement, Jesus' reconciliation of God with man, and then by our remaining in communion with God, we can overcome sin-and its consequence, death.
i will try this, this guy talks of salvation as been 'born again', he hold that u cant b born again frm conception because u have no sin. He applies this to mary saying only a sinner needs salvation nd no passage say a would-be sinner needs salvation. Thanks 4 your help.
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  #4  
Old Feb 25, '12, 12:57 pm
fred conty fred conty is offline
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Default Re: I nid help!

I Jn 1;8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
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  #5  
Old Feb 25, '12, 1:18 pm
fred conty fred conty is offline
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Default Re: I nid help!

Here are a couple of more passages.

Ro 5;8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners Christ died for us.

Acts 22;16
You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be
baptized, and wash your sins away calling on his name.
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  #6  
Old Feb 25, '12, 4:31 pm
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: I nid help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubenedictus View Post
i will try this, this guy talks of salvation as been 'born again', he hold that u cant b born again frm conception because u have no sin. He applies this to mary saying only a sinner needs salvation nd no passage say a would-be sinner needs salvation. Thanks 4 your help.
Does he believe that some people can go all through life, through adulthood, and yet never sin? If not, then he would have to deal with the question that asks, 'why is it that all sin'? What is it in humans that causes them, inevitably, to sin, especially in light of the fact that God made everything good? The Catholic concept of Original Sin suggests that we're all "born dead", so to speak, due to the Fall, and that's why we need to be born again. And this spiritual death, this original sin in us, consists of separation from God in conjunction with a preference to keep things that way until we come to see our need for Him; that's when we can turn back to God in faith.
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  #7  
Old Feb 25, '12, 11:57 pm
Ubenedictus Ubenedictus is offline
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Default Re: I nid help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by fhansen View Post
Does he believe that some people can go all through life, through adulthood, and yet never sin? If not, then he would have to deal with the question that asks, 'why is it that all sin'? What is it in humans that causes them, inevitably, to sin, especially in light of the fact that God made everything good? The Catholic concept of Original Sin suggests that we're all "born dead", so to speak, due to the Fall, and that's why we need to be born again. And this spiritual death, this original sin in us, consists of separation from God in conjunction with a preference to keep things that way until we come to see our need for Him; that's when we can turn back to God in faith.
He agrees with this arguement. His arguement is Salvation is for sinners so the immaculate conception is imposible. He argues that one cannot be created without original sin because christ's death is for sinners ONLY.
Ubenedictus
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  #8  
Old Feb 26, '12, 1:05 am
Trevor Stamm Trevor Stamm is offline
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Default Re: I nid help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubenedictus View Post
He agrees with this arguement. His arguement is Salvation is for sinners so the immaculate conception is imposible. He argues that one cannot be created without original sin because christ's death is for sinners ONLY.
Ubenedictus
And Adam and Eve did not need God while in their state of innocence? This is what happens when the Eucharist is completely taken out of Christianity, everything falls. We were created to know, love and serve God; The Fall does not change the highest reason for our being. I suggest you present the Scotus view of the Primacy of Christ, Franciscan Thesis, to your friend. It deals with the Immaculate Conception but mainly, presenting the maximum reason for the Incarnation of Christ. This video is a great introduction. If he doesn't want to hear philosophy or logic, coupled with Sacred Scripture, then at least you might learn something from this thesis. I'll post more videos that breaks it down further for deeper study.

To state the Incarnation is contingent of sin, such ignorance!
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  #9  
Old Feb 26, '12, 8:25 pm
Cleb Calimutan Cleb Calimutan is offline
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Smile Re: I need help!

The first two people created by God with out sins were Adam and Eve and so they are good examples of people having the sanctifying grace before sinning. Now, that favor comes from God, and Mary is highly favored (Lk.1:28) favor is a gift which means grace (kecharitomene). The same word is in the fullness of grace of Jesus (Jn.1:14) the word kechari is used. Hence, Mary is full of grace, now in her case, if sin comes first prior to grace the she could not be "full of grace" for there is now an instance where Mary is not having grace e.g. if she is under the curse of original sin, but Mary is full of grace wherefore she is not under the original sin but under the grace of God. And according to St. Paul, "sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under the law but under grace" (Rom.6:14). Therefore the question is now clarified that God may provide grace to a person to prevent the Person like Mary from sinning.
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  #10  
Old Feb 27, '12, 12:52 am
Ubenedictus Ubenedictus is offline
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Default Re: I nid help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor Stamm View Post
And Adam and Eve did not need God while in their state of innocence?
they did, his believes that because that innocence has been lost the only way to God is thru the merits of christ and that merit is for sinners ONLY. So according to his arguement unless mary sinned, the merits of christ can not be applied
Quote:
This is what happens when the Eucharist is completely taken out of Christianity, everything falls. We were created to know, love and serve God; The Fall does not change the highest reason for our being. I suggest you present the Scotus view of the Primacy of Christ, Franciscan Thesis, to your friend. It deals with the Immaculate Conception but mainly, presenting the maximum reason for the Incarnation of Christ. This video is a great introduction. If he doesn't want to hear philosophy or logic, coupled with Sacred Scripture, then at least you might learn something from this thesis. I'll post more videos that breaks it down further for deeper study.

To state the Incarnation is contingent of sin, such ignorance!
thank you for the thoughtful response, there is a problem though; im using a phone so i cant watch the video you provided, i would appreciate anything in written form. Thanks again, you really helped.
Ubenedictus
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  #11  
Old Feb 27, '12, 1:42 am
Ubenedictus Ubenedictus is offline
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Default Re: I need help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleb Calimutan View Post
The first two people created by God with out sins were Adam and Eve and so they are good examples of people having the sanctifying grace before sinning. Now, that favor comes from God, and Mary is highly favored (Lk.1:28) favor is a gift which means grace (kecharitomene). The same word is in the fullness of grace of Jesus (Jn.1:14) the word kechari is used. Hence, Mary is full of grace, now in her case, if sin comes first prior to grace the she could not be "full of grace" for there is now an instance where Mary is not having grace e.g. if she is under the curse of original sin, but Mary is full of grace wherefore she is not under the original sin but under the grace of God. And according to St. Paul, "sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under the law but under grace" (Rom.6:14). Therefore the question is now clarified that God may provide grace to a person to prevent the Person like Mary from sinning.
thanks for this beautiful arguement, it is truly worthy to note that two people are called full of grace in the bible, but how does the fulness of grace suppose an absence of sin before the reception of that grace? Its a bit confusing. Thanks again.
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  #12  
Old Feb 27, '12, 9:48 am
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: I need help!

I think posts #8 and 9 resolve this. All grace, and, therefore, all salvation, is merited by Christ's work of Atonement for all humans since the Fall, whether they were born before or after the Incarnation. Mary, as well, would not be "salvageable" if not for His coming and the grace made available by it. Mary could not be saved because, by lacking grace, she would not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and therefore she'd remain in a state of injustice.
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"It is love alone that gives worth to all things." - St. Teresa of Avila
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  #13  
Old Feb 27, '12, 10:03 am
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: I need help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubenedictus View Post
thanks for this beautiful arguement, it is truly worthy to note that two people are called full of grace in the bible, but how does the fulness of grace suppose an absence of sin before the reception of that grace? Its a bit confusing. Thanks again.
In Catholic theology, grace and love are concepts that are intimately related and both are related to the indwelling and work of the Holy Spirit. When grace is considered to be sanctifying, then sin is excluded since grace/love/the Holy Spirit and sin are mutually exclusive by nature. Sin would've been Mary's lot had she not been given the grace to exclude it.
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