Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Traditional Catholicism
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Feb 27, '12, 9:09 pm
trickster trickster is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: October 7, 2011
Posts: 1,280
Religion: Catholic
Default Politically Incorrect Canonization

I have read a bit about "canonizing" lately. I heard that they have or want to canonize Queen Isabella of Spain and her husband. As an aboriginal person I find that offensive given the destruction that european states and the church played in the role of our people's cultural genocide...

Question: What standards do we use to decide whether a person is a saint or not? Like should they be vetted like the Republican candidates

Bruce
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Feb 28, '12, 12:08 am
PhilOSophia PhilOSophia is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: December 30, 2011
Posts: 84
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

I think political correctness should be flushed down the toilet of history. It's no substitute for morality.

A superior form of social organisation bulldozed an inferior one. I would guess at the time this was thought well and good.

I do sometimes fondly imagine what it would be like to strip those, who prate on the nobility of native cultures, of all vestiges of Western civilisation, and make them live as natives for a decade.

In sum: the locals lost. Their conquerors played them off each other and with better organisation, weapons and tactics comparatively few men beat whole nations.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Feb 28, '12, 2:42 am
Laudate Dominum Laudate Dominum is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2011
Posts: 376
Religion: Latin Church Catholic
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

Quote:
Originally Posted by trickster View Post
As an aboriginal person I find that offensive given the destruction that european states and the church played in the role of our people's cultural genocide...
You care more about your culture than your immortal soul? Quite frankly trading an Amerindian tongue for Castellan seems a decent price for one's salvation. Your culture may have been horribly brutalised but your people were given the True Faith. No need to complain.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Feb 28, '12, 3:15 am
MaryandJoseph MaryandJoseph is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Posts: 243
Religion: Catholic, leaning towards Traditional
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

In all honesty though, We don't even choose who is a Saint in heaven or not, God has made that decision for us.

Now, how do we figure out what God already knows in order to Declare a person a Saint? By "judging" them by the same standards as all others declared Saints by Holy Mother Church.

Political Correctness should NEVER be considered in this.....but for that matter, P/C should go the way of the DO-DO Bird.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Feb 28, '12, 4:02 am
Filii Dei's Avatar
Filii Dei Filii Dei is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2011
Posts: 978
Religion: Latin Church, Roman Rite
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

Political correctness? Political correctness should never be an issue in a cause of canonisation.

I doubt the Spanish Conquest (if I am reading the OP correctly) would be a huge detriment to any cause for her canonisation, because there was no way she could have been significantly engaged in the decision-making behind the colonisation efforts apart from simply sending people and supplies, as any contact between the Americas and Spain took months to span the Atlantic. Also, she was only alive to witness the first few years of the colonisation effort, while most of the so-called cultural genocide occurred well after her reign. Even if the monarchs were in any way behind them, the sins of her successors cannot be reflected upon herself.

However, I personally doubt Queen Isabella will be canonised. The standards for canonisation have become stricter over the past few centuries, and while Queen Isabella was an astute politician and a wise ruler, some of her decisions have been of dubious good, such as a war with a fellow Catholic state (Portugal) - although arguably done in self-defence - and the Alhambra Decree. Furthermore, we will need a lot more information on her holiness and devotion to God, because sainthood is not just about public actions but personal humility as well.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Feb 28, '12, 4:56 am
Ohana's Avatar
Ohana Ohana is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2011
Posts: 1,174
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilOSophia View Post
I think political correctness should be flushed down the toilet of history. It's no substitute for morality.

A superior form of social organisation bulldozed an inferior one. I would guess at the time this was thought well and good.

I do sometimes fondly imagine what it would be like to strip those, who prate on the nobility of native cultures, of all vestiges of Western civilisation, and make them live as natives for a decade.

In sum: the locals lost. Their conquerors played them off each other and with better organisation, weapons and tactics comparatively few men beat whole nations.
Of course! Might makes right! How could I forget.
__________________
All shall be welll
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.

Julian of norwich
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Feb 28, '12, 5:36 am
Dale_M Dale_M is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: September 6, 2006
Posts: 18,814
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryandJoseph View Post
In all honesty though, We don't even choose who is a Saint in heaven or not, God has made that decision for us.

Now, how do we figure out what God already knows in order to Declare a person a Saint? By "judging" them by the same standards as all others declared Saints by Holy Mother Church..
Hmmm.... yes and no. The Church recognizes some people as saints, not because only those individuals are saints, but because they have led exemplary lives and will serve as models who will inspire the faithful to greater holiness.

It makes sense for the Church to consider, in part, whether the life of an individual speaks to today's Catholics. So paying special attention to individuals who are non-European, particularly those from under privileged classes, might be especially relevant. After all, the majority of Catholics, and the majority of growth in the Church, is in lesser developed nations.

As for Queen Isabella, I am not familiar with the details of her life. Certainly she may inspire some Catholics. If her selection offends some Catholics, is that reason to reject naming her as a saint? Or maybe delay naming her a saint? I dunno. I guess it would come down to the reasons for rejecting her, and whether there is a moral fault on her part.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Feb 28, '12, 5:55 am
Filii Dei's Avatar
Filii Dei Filii Dei is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2011
Posts: 978
Religion: Latin Church, Roman Rite
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilOSophia View Post
I think political correctness should be flushed down the toilet of history. It's no substitute for morality.

A superior form of social organisation bulldozed an inferior one. I would guess at the time this was thought well and good.

I do sometimes fondly imagine what it would be like to strip those, who prate on the nobility of native cultures, of all vestiges of Western civilisation, and make them live as natives for a decade.

In sum: the locals lost. Their conquerors played them off each other and with better organisation, weapons and tactics comparatively few men beat whole nations.
I share your sentiment about political correctness, but that's about all we agree on. Your proclivity to whitewash the events of the colonisation of the Americas is disturbing. Great sins were committed in the name of exploration, and although South America now greatly benefits from the Catholic faith, it can never justify the great evils that occurred in the process. What you suggest edges close to utilitarianism, and let me remind you that such views - justifying the deaths of innocents for a 'common good' - are condemned by the Church. Would you tolerate the Muslims similarly saying that a "superior form of social organisation bulldozed an inferior one" in their conquest of Jerusalem?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Feb 28, '12, 6:37 am
Armyvet007's Avatar
Armyvet007 Armyvet007 is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2011
Posts: 693
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

The conquest of the Americas didn't take place because of or for the Catholic faith. It took place because of and for Spain. It wasn't funded from Rome, it didn't become Papal territory, it wasn't ruled from Rome, and the treasure fleets didn't sail from the New World to Rome. It was a secular (state) action; and no different really then the conquest of Gaul by the Romans or the later actions by non-Catholic European states in Africa and Asia. And, the only real difference between what the Europeans did to Native Americans and what some Native Americans did to other Native Americans is a difference of scale [made possible by their advanced technology and different approach to empire building].

That being said, it was morally wrong and those who supported it from within the Church were morally wrong (and those who opposed it from within the Church were morally right).

As for PC playing a role in the selection of saints, it has no place in that process.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Feb 28, '12, 6:55 am
A G's Avatar
A G A G is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: November 1, 2011
Posts: 617
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

"Political Correctness" is evil. It is a philosophy that often hides or suppresses the truth.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Feb 28, '12, 7:50 am
1ke 1ke is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 24,364
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

I suggest you read Isabel of Spain by Warren Carroll.

I also suggest some fact checking regarding the so-called "conquering" of indiginous peoples you attribute to her. Isabella died in 1504.
__________________
Pax, ke

ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Feb 28, '12, 8:12 am
TheDoctor TheDoctor is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: September 27, 2007
Posts: 1,916
Religion: Cradle Catholic, Latin Rite
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

Quote:
Originally Posted by trickster View Post
Question: What standards do we use to decide whether a person is a saint or not? Like should they be vetted like the Republican candidates

Bruce
Bruce - we use no standards as we (the Church) do not decide if anyone is a Saint or not. That is done by almighty God. All the cannonization process does is affirm what God has already accomplished.
__________________
Open-Minded Traditionalist: M,W,F / Orthodox Liberal: Tu, Th, Sa
Just resting with Him on Sunday. Catholic Always
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Feb 28, '12, 8:18 am
JReducation's Avatar
JReducation JReducation is offline
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2007
Posts: 20,180
Religion: CATHOLIC
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

Quote:
Originally Posted by trickster View Post
I have read a bit about "canonizing" lately. I heard that they have or want to canonize Queen Isabella of Spain and her husband. As an aboriginal person I find that offensive given the destruction that european states and the church played in the role of our people's cultural genocide...

Question: What standards do we use to decide whether a person is a saint or not? Like should they be vetted like the Republican candidates

Bruce
Actually, there is only one criteria necessary for canonization to be valid and to require an assent of faith on the part of the faithful. That criteria is, "The pope says so."

The canonical "requirements" for canonization are created to setup a system or a process. However, that system is not binding on the Church. The pope can dispense with it or modify it at any time.

If we go by the canonical process the steps are very clear:

1. The person lived a life of heroic Christian virtue.

2. There are two proven miracles that can be absolutely attributed to the deceased.

If we examine number one, the issue of how the Europeans dealt with the indigenous peoples of their colonies is not a reflection on the personal holiness of the monarch. The monarch is responsible for his moral choices, not those of his subjects. He is responsible to leading his subjects, but not for them following. This is where religious freedom kicks in. The monarch can lead, but he cannot choose for his subjects. Their choices are their own.

In addition, one has to factor the culture of the monarch. The monarch can only be held responsible for what he knows, not for what is understood through social evolution. These understandings come after the monarch is long dead. In this case, the common belief of the time was that it was the duty of the Catholic nations of Europe to bring Catholicism on their colonies, even if it meant using force. In their mind, the force was a justified means for saving souls. The whole concept of religious freedom does not really become clear until after WW II. It was rather nebulous at the end of the Middle Ages, almost non-existent.

The question left to the commission is whether the candidate being postulated lived a life of virtue that surpasses that which is ordinary for his time and circumstance, not our time and circumstances. If the Defender of the Faith (formerly known as the Devil's Advocate) concedes that there is no argument that can be made against the candidate, the case is closed and the candidate is proclaimed Venerable, meaning that his faith is exemplary.

Then you wait for the miracles. One for beatification and the second for canonization.

However, all of this is water under the bridge if the pope believes that the person is a saint and decides to bypass an investigation into the person's a life and an investigation into alleged miracles.

This was the case with St. Francis, St. Clare, and St. Anthony of Padua. In all three cases, the two popes involved said that they knew that these individuals had lived a life of heroic Christian virtue and they believed the alleged miracles; therefore, no investigation was necessary into their lives or the miracles. The popes canonized them.

A canonization is an infallible decree made from the Chair of Peter. Whether it's politically correct, diplomatic or not, once the pope says that the faithful must venerate the person as a saint, everything else that may have resulted from their actions is irrelevant. Those things are considered to be unintended effects.

A simple case is the beatification of Bl. John Paul. Many argue that it should not have happened and that he should not be canonized because of the sexual abuse, the liturgical abuses and other problems that arose in the Church during his time. Pope Benedict's response was firm and final. None of these were intended by the candidate, nor were they ever under his control, because the pope cannot micromanage the Church. It's impossible to be everywhere and deal with every issue. You must delegate and you have to trust those to whom you delegate.

The pope's mind is made up not by what happens around the candidate, but by the actual faith and virtue of the candidate. I'm not sure whether the Catholic Monarchs will ever be canonized or not. But if they are, it will be because of their faith and virtue, not those of their subjects.

As I said, the pope can dispense with an investigation into their lives, skip beatification and infallibly canonized and those of us who do not like it, will have to give an assent of faith, regardless of what history books say.

Having lived in South America as a missionary, there is no doubt that the Europeans did a great deal of harm to the local people and the resentment is still there today. So much so that the indigenous people refuse and reject anything in Catholicism that smells European. You have two parallel Catholic communities, the whites and mestizos, who are the descendants of the Europeans and the indigenous people. You can the differences in how they celebrate liturgy, religious art and architecture and religious music. The Franciscans and Dominicans did a very good job of taking Europe out of Catholicism in order to bring in the indigenous people.

But the economic and moral disaster that the Europeans left will take another hundred years to clean up, unless they do as we have done in North America . . . segregate the indigenous people from the mainstream. I don't see them doing that, since the indigenous people make up 1/3 of the population, unlike North America.
__________________
Fraternally,

Brother JR, FFV

"Forget not love."


How long have I waited . . .
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Feb 28, '12, 8:18 am
JReducation's Avatar
JReducation JReducation is offline
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2007
Posts: 20,180
Religion: CATHOLIC
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

On the flip side, the indigenous people were neither saints nor helpless victims. Long before the arrival of the Europeans they inflicted great pain on each other and ravaged each other through wars. From Mexico down to the tip of South America, the indigenous people were very sophisticated cultures. They were not savages, nor were they idiots. They knew how to scam, oppress, abuse, steal and destroy like the best Europeans. Having lived among them for 7 years I can testify to this. We have to give up this illusory image of the harmless and naive native who is the victim of the Europeans. Many holy Europeans lost their lives as the hands of barbaric natives.

We have to look at history with a balanced eye.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF
__________________
Fraternally,

Brother JR, FFV

"Forget not love."


How long have I waited . . .
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Feb 28, '12, 9:03 am
Leon Bloy's Avatar
Leon Bloy Leon Bloy is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2011
Posts: 710
Religion: Roman Catholic
Default Re: Politically Incorrect Canonization

Quote:
Originally Posted by trickster View Post
I have read a bit about "canonizing" lately. I heard that they have or want to canonize Queen Isabella of Spain and her husband. As an aboriginal person I find that offensive given the destruction that european states and the church played in the role of our people's cultural genocide...

Question: What standards do we use to decide whether a person is a saint or not? Like should they be vetted like the Republican candidates

Bruce
The whole thing about the relationship between Spain and aboriginal persons is enormously complex...
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Traditional Catholicism

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8338Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Mary Virginia
5083CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: tawny
4395Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: FootStool
4036OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: aellis422
3857SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3651Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3267Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
3235Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3218Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: memphian
3080For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: Grace3877



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 6:48 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.