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  #16  
Old Mar 3, '12, 1:35 pm
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lo Sono Amore View Post
In the human race, some are born to hate and sin. I understand this, but why cant those of us, heterosexual or homosexual, just agree that love is love? Love is love no mater what shape or form. For me, I believe that whatever kind of sexuality is right. I would never degrade someones opinion on this, though. If you're not a supporter of gay rights and homosexuality then why read things on it? Just to be rude and try to force someone who is uncomfortable into heterosexuality? Why cant people accept that what you say wont more than likely change someones firm opinions on something?


Love is a sacrificial idea for Catholics. We must practice it. In the case of homosexual persons, there is an attempt to make a one to one comparison between homosexual expression and heterosexual expression.

Opinions don't matter, but it's fine to ask questions. I invite you to read the following:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/co...unions_en.html



Peace,
Ed
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  #17  
Old Mar 3, '12, 3:30 pm
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Khalid Khalid is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

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Originally Posted by phoooiee View Post
I can't help but to think how much help posts like this are to the pro-gay agenda. Wouldn't it be better to speak respectfully?
If we cannot present the truth in love, no one can come to see the truth.
I have to agree. If that was said on TV, the Matachin Group would have mobs of people trying to throw money at them.
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Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - II Timothy 2:15

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  #18  
Old Mar 3, '12, 5:23 pm
OraLabora OraLabora is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

What does love have to do with sex?

Ask a mother or her child. Ask siblings like my mother (widow) and aunt (spinster) who lived together and supported each other in old age, much as a husband and wife would except for the sexual aspect?

Sex can be an expression of love, or it can be wholly disordered (and that includes by straight people).

But love can also be expressed in many other ways than sex.
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  #19  
Old Mar 3, '12, 5:29 pm
Dakota Roberts Dakota Roberts is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

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Originally Posted by OraLabora View Post
What does love have to do with sex?

Ask a mother or her child. Ask siblings like my mother (widow) and aunt (spinster) who lived together and supported each other in old age, much as a husband and wife would except for the sexual aspect?

Sex can be an expression of love, or it can be wholly disordered (and that includes by straight people).

But love can also be expressed in many other ways than sex.
In a situation like that wouldn't it be perfectly reasonable for them to be able to designate the other as a "spouse" so that if one worked the other could get health care benefits or the other gets survivor's benefits?
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  #20  
Old Mar 3, '12, 5:44 pm
kch86 kch86 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lo Sono Amore View Post
In the human race, some are born to hate and sin. I understand this, but why cant those of us, heterosexual or homosexual, just agree that love is love? Love is love no mater what shape or form. For me, I believe that whatever kind of sexuality is right. I would never degrade someones opinion on this, though. If you're not a supporter of gay rights and homosexuality then why read things on it? Just to be rude and try to force someone who is uncomfortable into heterosexuality? Why cant people accept that what you say wont more than likely change someones firm opinions on something?
Okay, I'm homosexual and Catholic, and I don't understand.

1) Nobody is forcing me into heterosexuality. God has decided that heterosexuality is the way to go and I'm not going to argue. But how does that force me into heterosexuality? Am I being forced to sleep with a woman somehow? How?

2) I used to have firm opinions on homosexuality and they have been changed. I was wrong. If two people who have firm but opposing opinions seek the truth in their discussions together and do not persist in being stubborn then those opinions, no matter how firm, are liable to change.

3) Love is love? Okay, seriously, you are gonna have to stop with that airy fairy lovey dovey cr*p now because it doesn't make sense to me. What sort of a statement is "love is love"? That's like saying x=x. I'd like to know the value of x, please. So define love for me, because I think you are confusing it for something it is not. And tell me, how is my abusing the body of another man for my own sexual gratification love?

And I've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again. I really, really love my German Shepherd. He is the best dog in the world. Must I have sex with him?

Last edited by kch86; Mar 3, '12 at 5:55 pm.
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  #21  
Old Mar 3, '12, 5:58 pm
Charlemagne II Charlemagne II is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

kch

And I've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again. I really, really love my German Shepherd. He is the best dog in the world. Must I have sex with him?


I'll bet he loves you as much as you love him, but hasn't even asked himself that question.
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  #22  
Old Mar 3, '12, 6:02 pm
kch86 kch86 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

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Originally Posted by Charlemagne II View Post
kch

And I've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again. I really, really love my German Shepherd. He is the best dog in the world. Must I have sex with him?


I'll bet he loves you as much as you love him, but hasn't even asked himself that question.
Believe me, I haven't either. I only do it for the sake of argument
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  #23  
Old Mar 3, '12, 7:12 pm
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Khalid Khalid is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kch86 View Post
And I've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again. I really, really love my German Shepherd. He is the best dog in the world. Must I have sex with him?
Irish Wolf Hounds are better, but Poodles are sexier. At least that's what my dog says.
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Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - II Timothy 2:15

Above all things Truth beareth away the victory: ... great is Truth, mighty above all things. - III Esdras 3:12,4:41
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  #24  
Old Mar 4, '12, 12:58 am
kch86 kch86 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

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Originally Posted by Khalid View Post
Irish Wolf Hounds are better, but Poodles are sexier. At least that's what my dog says.
Your dog is an Irish Wolf Hound supremacist?

I never expected such racism from our canine friends...
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  #25  
Old Mar 4, '12, 3:17 am
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Carolus Martell Carolus Martell is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phoooiee View Post
I can't help but to think how much help posts like this are to the pro-gay agenda. Wouldn't it be better to speak respectfully?
If we cannot present the truth in love, no one can come to see the truth.
...perhaps your loving approach is a result of the same sex relationship you were in?

After 50 years of experiencing the diminishing of our Church over these sexual perversions I prefer a more direct approach. Enough is enough!

The uncivilized barbarians have taken advantage of decent folks tolerance.

The key strategy of the gay agenda is to constantly work it into every part of our daily life so that the public becomes immune to it. Do you really think these constantly recurring gay/homo topics are seriously random and from the heart?

It's time to start telling it like it is before we all suffer Gods wrath for becoming a heathen ba'al worshiping perverted pagan Nation. Good heavens, abortion is just modern day child sacrifice when you think it through...and how barbaric is that?
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  #26  
Old Mar 4, '12, 12:07 pm
kch86 kch86 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

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Originally Posted by phoooiee View Post
I was in a same-sex relationship for a long time. Please believe me, it is not the same as an opposite-sex relationship. You cannot judge it unless you have done it- please consider that without personal knowledge of the inner experience of homosexuality, you cannot know that it is actually love and not something disordered and harmful.
I have been in a same-sex relationship too so I guess I am qualified to judge then

Quote:
It's true, love is love- and the Church teaches that the sacrificial, platonic love between two people in a same-sex relationship is valid and real (in the sense of friendship)- but that the sexual element of these relationships are not rooted in love. In our culture we are taught that love is synonymous with sexual desire- in fact sexual desire is far inferior to, and only points to, true sacrificial love.
I completely agree. There can be true love between people of the same sex, be they men or women. That love is called friendship.

This friendship can exist within a homosexual relationship. Although the sexual aspect, I believe, damages and can eventually destroy that friendship because it is not an expression of love but of hatred. That is because it involves the abuse and degradation of one or both of the participants.

You don't do that to a man you love, your friend.
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  #27  
Old Mar 4, '12, 5:06 pm
Dakota Roberts Dakota Roberts is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

Friendship in the modern world has become quite shallow; love in the modern world has become too broad and too narrow, loving ice cream for example is only possible if love simply means like and when you say you love a person people assume you mean it in a sexual sense or are using hyperbole.
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  #28  
Old Mar 4, '12, 5:31 pm
sw85 sw85 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lo Sono Amore View Post
In the human race, some are born to hate and sin. I understand this, but why cant those of us, heterosexual or homosexual, just agree that love is love? Love is love no mater what shape or form. For me, I believe that whatever kind of sexuality is right. I would never degrade someones opinion on this, though. If you're not a supporter of gay rights and homosexuality then why read things on it? Just to be rude and try to force someone who is uncomfortable into heterosexuality? Why cant people accept that what you say wont more than likely change someones firm opinions on something?
Not sure what you're trying to say here (e.g., "I believe that whatever kind of sexuality is right" is pretty much a sentence fragment). But if you're asking why people who are anti-homosexuality would read threads on Catholic Answers that aren't anti-homoesxuality, well, why shouldn't they? You have a duty in charity to chastise sinners and remind people of their obligation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phoooiee View Post
I was in a same-sex relationship for a long time. Please believe me, it is not the same as an opposite-sex relationship. You cannot judge it unless you have done it- please consider that without personal knowledge of the inner experience of homosexuality, you cannot know that it is actually love and not something disordered and harmful.

It's true, love is love- and the Church teaches that the sacrificial, platonic love between two people in a same-sex relationship is valid and real (in the sense of friendship)- but that the sexual element of these relationships are not rooted in love. In our culture we are taught that love is synonymous with sexual desire- in fact sexual desire is far inferior to, and only points to, true sacrificial love.

Seeking sex with another person like oneself springs from a difficulty in loving and respecting oneself. It is an attempt to fill a void created by that difficulty.
There is no mystery in it- neither party is really and completely giving the self to the other- but only seeking to find the self.

Please prayerfully consider this with an open mind.
Interesting you mention this. "Love," properly considered, is the ordering of one's will toward another's good. It thus requires a desire that the beloved live up to the excellence of their own nature, i.e., by avoiding sin. Perhaps what homosexuals mean when they insist that "love is love" is rather something like mere "affection," which of course is not an unqualified good.

I have heard the "homosexuality as narcissism" argument before. Not sure what to think of it. My mind is not really set up to process Platonic/Augustinian kinds of arguments. It's enough for me that natural law forbids sexual perversion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phoooiee View Post
I can't help but to think how much help posts like this are to the pro-gay agenda. Wouldn't it be better to speak respectfully?
If we cannot present the truth in love, no one can come to see the truth.
Well, if they did not have fellows like him to point to, I am confident they would invent someone like him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota Roberts View Post
In a situation like that wouldn't it be perfectly reasonable for them to be able to designate the other as a "spouse" so that if one worked the other could get health care benefits or the other gets survivor's benefits?
Reasonable? As in beneficial? Maybe. But good? No.

A spouse is a woman's husband or a man's wife. A spouse gets benefits because they are necessary for the spouse to discharge his/her duty to his/her family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kch86 View Post
And I've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again. I really, really love my German Shepherd. He is the best dog in the world. Must I have sex with him?
Man-animal rights, man. Their love is just as valid as anyone else's. Who are you to deny their equal rights? Human dignity demands equal treatment somehow. etc. etc.

lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolus Martell View Post
...perhaps your loving approach is a result of the same sex relationship you were in?

After 50 years of experiencing the diminishing of our Church over these sexual perversions I prefer a more direct approach. Enough is enough!

The uncivilized barbarians have taken advantage of decent folks tolerance.

The key strategy of the gay agenda is to constantly work it into every part of our daily life so that the public becomes immune to it. Do you really think these constantly recurring gay/homo topics are seriously random and from the heart?

It's time to start telling it like it is before we all suffer Gods wrath for becoming a heathen ba'al worshiping perverted pagan Nation. Good heavens, abortion is just modern day child sacrifice when you think it through...and how barbaric is that?
Well, you've got a point, insofar as there are at least some saints (e.g., Louis IX) who were explicit in their policy to kill any blasphemer they encountered. Indeed this was the policy for much of Christendom. They seem to have been markedly better off in a number of important ways for it.

On the other hand, personal vitriol is a dangerous habit and attitude to cultivate. I respond occasionally with a harsh word to deserving fools (and usually get warned for it), but you have to be extra-careful to avoid getting *too* nasty for the sake of your own soul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota Roberts View Post
Friendship in the modern world has become quite shallow; love in the modern world has become too broad and too narrow, loving ice cream for example is only possible if love simply means like and when you say you love a person people assume you mean it in a sexual sense or are using hyperbole.
Very important, and very true. (Liberal) modernity has endeavored to destroy all that makes life valuable and meaningful. We shouldn't be surprised about this -- that was its intention from the beginning, and it has never shied from saying it.
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  #29  
Old Mar 4, '12, 5:59 pm
kch86 kch86 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota Roberts View Post
Friendship in the modern world has become quite shallow; love in the modern world has become too broad and too narrow, loving ice cream for example is only possible if love simply means like and when you say you love a person people assume you mean it in a sexual sense or are using hyperbole.
That's true, but close friendships are still possible.

"Love" in the modern world is devoid of meaning. It's conflated with fondness, infatuation, affection, desire for closeness or simply sexual desire. And when desire ceases, "the love is gone" and it's time to get a divorce. It's only logical because long before gay marriage became an issue, regular marriage was redefined as something two people who "love" each other do because they are "in love." It's such a shame I can't find a barfing smiley on this forum software because I'd "love" to put one right here.

I generally see "true love" in the objective sense - desiring or willing the other person's well-being. Although I guess for that love truly to be true, the well-being one must will for should be both physical and spiritual. Still, that's a fairly narrow definition, quite devoid of emotional value - I'm not a fan of nauseating sentimentality obscuring rational discussion.

That said, the "true love" present in a good friendship naturally has a subjective aspect to it and necessarily includes feelings of fondness and affection. The word, "love," however, has become so debased in our modern culture that it's probably best to use ancient Greek words for the different kinds in any serious discussion about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sw85
Very important, and very true. (Liberal) modernity has endeavored to destroy all that makes life valuable and meaningful. We shouldn't be surprised about this -- that was its intention from the beginning, and it has never shied from saying it.
I'm blind. How was that intention expressed and what exactly has it never shied away from saying?

Last edited by kch86; Mar 4, '12 at 6:10 pm.
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  #30  
Old Mar 4, '12, 6:17 pm
sw85 sw85 is offline
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Default Re: Homosexuality, heterosexuality and why we cant agree.

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Originally Posted by kch86 View Post
I'm blind. How was that intention expressed and what exactly has it never shied away from saying?
To give just one example, one of liberalism's central claims is that we ought to abandon religion or at least marginalize it socially in order to avoid war and violence. Atheists in particular make this argument all the time.

Quite an alarming claim on its face. If religion is true, then it ought to be defended, with war and violence if absolutely necessary, against those who would deny it its proper place in the ordering of man's social and ethical life. And if it's false, we ought to abandon it because it's false, not because it causes war and violence.
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