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  #1  
Old Jul 21, '05, 9:22 pm
volzcpa volzcpa is offline
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Default Are we to fight Islamic totalitarian governments?

I just read an article about Pope Benedict condemning totalitarian ideologies (The Catholic World Report, July 2005). His remarks were made May 19 after viewing a movie about the life of Pope John Paul II which included images of Nazi atrocities in Poland. The pope said “Whenever totalitarian ideology crushes man underfoot, all humanity is seriously threatened.” He went on to say that the recollection of Nazi and Communist oppression should inspire “every person to do whatever is in his power so that we will never again live through such barbarous events.”

There are many Islamic governments that qualify as having “totalitarian ideologies”, so are we to fight these governments with all our power? Do not some sects of Islam have totalitarian ideologies?

Note: Definition of “totalitarian” per dictionary.com -- Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: “A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).

Food for thought.
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  #2  
Old Jul 22, '05, 7:19 pm
BrJimC BrJimC is offline
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Cool Re: Are we to fight Islamic totalitarian governments?

Firstly, there are no "Muslim" totalitarian governments.... Totalitarianism is forbidden in Islam because it is oppressive of the people.... and there are no "muslim" governments because no government on earth abides 100% by Qur'an and Sunnah (Shariah). They have corrupted their governments by assimilating shariah with their own corrupt laws.

So, there are governments that govern a Muslim populous but do not abide by the rules and regulations of Islam 100%.

Second, I wouldnt suggest fighting against such governments since you will only lead to another Crusade and subsequent world war.

Lastly, I think Catholics and Muslims need to work together to free each other from oppression in the world. The forces of Christian Fundamentalism, Communism, unbridled Capitalism, Secularism, Gnosticism, humanism and Islamic extremism are working against all religious peoples of teh world to divide and conquer us... this is the master plan of teh Anti-Christ in preparation of his coming. A day when he will set himself up as a false prophet and god who will save us from ourselves, poverty and famine that his own institution has created to begin with.

BrJimC
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  #3  
Old Jul 22, '05, 10:04 pm
volzcpa volzcpa is offline
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Default Re: Are we to fight Islamic totalitarian governments?

Whether or not Islam teaches totalitarian ideology there are sects within Islam e.g. the Wahhabi ideology, which are totalitarian and there are governments of Islamic people that in practice are totalitarian. The Center for Religious Freedom in the summary of their report on Saudi government publications, concludes that the Saudi government propaganda examined reflects a “totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence”.

I am only just beginning to learn about Islam, but it is my understanding that it is the general belief of Muslims that 1) a Muslim who converts to another religion is to be killed and 2) if a missionary tries to convert Muslims to another religion, then a mob can kill the missionary without consequences. If this is true then I believe that Islam/Islamic governments has/have the marks of a totalitarian ideology.
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  #4  
Old Jul 22, '05, 10:17 pm
BrJimC BrJimC is offline
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Default Re: Are we to fight Islamic totalitarian governments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by volzcpa
Whether or not Islam teaches totalitarian ideology there are sects within Islam e.g. the Wahhabi ideology, which are totalitarian and there are governments of Islamic people that in practice are totalitarian. The Center for Religious Freedom in the summary of their report on Saudi government publications, concludes that the Saudi government propaganda examined reflects a “totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence”.

I am only just beginning to learn about Islam, but it is my understanding that it is the general belief of Muslims that 1) a Muslim who converts to another religion is to be killed and 2) if a missionary tries to convert Muslims to another religion, then a mob can kill the missionary without consequences. If this is true then I believe that Islam/Islamic governments has/have the marks of a totalitarian ideology.
Jim, Muslims who convert out of Islam are NOT to be killed.... the only way they get sentenced to the death penalty is if they actively work to kill Muslims or destroy Islam. I believe Catholics has (or at least had) strict rules regarding apostates also. Maybe you can shed some light as to what Canon Law says should be done with an Apostate.

Missionaries are NOT to be killed according to Shariah (Islamic Law) the penalty for missionizing Muslims is that they are deported and if they persist then they may be fined or jailed.... but you cannot kill a missionary.

Saudi Arabia is not a Muslim government... they do not abide by Islamic law (shariah). They are one who borrows from it and mixes various laws with corrupt laws dictated by a brutal monarchy. As a Muslim who follows Islam, I would stand against them. they are violators of Islam and in Islam there are no kingships.... this is against Islam... The first leader after the Prophet died was Abu Bakr.... he didnt inheret power... he was elected in accordance with the Prophets wishes... this teaches us that an Islamic government must be elected by the people... not ruled in totalitatianism or Monarchy.


BrJimC
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  #5  
Old Jul 23, '05, 10:15 pm
hawk hawk is offline
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Default Re: Are we to fight Islamic totalitarian governments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrJimC
Jim, Muslims who convert out of Islam are NOT to be killed.... the only way they get sentenced to the death penalty is if they actively work to kill Muslims or destroy Islam. I believe Catholics has (or at least had) strict rules regarding apostates also. Maybe you can shed some light as to what Canon Law says should be done with an Apostate.

Missionaries are NOT to be killed according to Shariah (Islamic Law) the penalty for missionizing Muslims is that they are deported and if they persist then they may be fined or jailed.... but you cannot kill a missionary.

Saudi Arabia is not a Muslim government... they do not abide by Islamic law (shariah). They are one who borrows from it and mixes various laws with corrupt laws dictated by a brutal monarchy. As a Muslim who follows Islam, I would stand against them. they are violators of Islam and in Islam there are no kingships.... this is against Islam... The first leader after the Prophet died was Abu Bakr.... he didnt inheret power... he was elected in accordance with the Prophets wishes... this teaches us that an Islamic government must be elected by the people... not ruled in totalitatianism or Monarchy.


BrJimC

Not True unless you want to deny the sunnah of the Prophet.

Abdullah bin Mas'ud narrated that the Prophet(pbuh) said,
"It is impermissible to take the life of a muslim who bears testimony that there is no god but allah, and I am the messenger of allah, except in one of three cases: the adulterer, a life for a life, and the renegade muslim (apostate), who abandons the ummah."

Recorded in Al-Bukhary in Kitab ad-diyyat hadit no. 6878; also recorded by muslim in kitab al-qasamah 1676/25

Its one of the 40 most important ahadith, from ibn rajab.

I dont know where you get your fatwas from, but i think you should look it up again.
  #6  
Old Jul 26, '05, 12:52 pm
iamrefreshed iamrefreshed is offline
 
Join Date: April 7, 2005
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Default Re: Are we to fight Islamic totalitarian governments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrJimC
Firstly, there are no "Muslim" totalitarian governments.... Totalitarianism is forbidden in Islam because it is oppressive of the people.... and there are no "muslim" governments because no government on earth abides 100% by Qur'an and Sunnah (Shariah). They have corrupted their governments by assimilating shariah with their own corrupt laws.

So, there are governments that govern a Muslim populous but do not abide by the rules and regulations of Islam 100%.

Second, I wouldnt suggest fighting against such governments since you will only lead to another Crusade and subsequent world war.

Lastly, I think Catholics and Muslims need to work together to free each other from oppression in the world. The forces of Christian Fundamentalism, Communism, unbridled Capitalism, Secularism, Gnosticism, humanism and Islamic extremism are working against all religious peoples of teh world to divide and conquer us... this is the master plan of teh Anti-Christ in preparation of his coming. A day when he will set himself up as a false prophet and god who will save us from ourselves, poverty and famine that his own institution has created to begin with.

BrJimC
I disagree about your statement that there are no Muslim governments. Why should I believe the 12-15 Muslims on this forum and not the 174 million Muslim's in Indonesia? Or the 26 Million in Saudi Arabia? Or the 75 million in Niger? Or the 165 million in Pakistan?

Those Muslim's are actively persecuting my fellow Christians in the name of Islam. It's not like the Christians outnumber the Muslims. Or they are converting Muslims to Christianity in mass numbers. They account for a tiny portion of the population and STILL Muslims want them converted or dead.

<Eighty-seven percent (174 million) of Indonesia's 201 million people are Muslim — the largest Muslim population of any country in the world. The goal of Laskar Jihad and like-minded radicals is to make Islam the country's official religion, and to impose sharia law. It already exists in Ternate, a small island-city just off of Halmahera. Christian pastors unfortunate enough to be discovered in the area simply get beheaded.>

http://catholiceducation.org/article...n/pch0032.html

You may just have a better Islam than the other 1.2 billion of your brothers and sisters.
  #7  
Old Jul 26, '05, 1:09 pm
Karin Karin is offline
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Default Re: Are we to fight Islamic totalitarian governments?

what about other totalitarian governments not just Islamic ones...or soon to be totalitarian ...
"As history demonstrates, a democracy without values easily turns into open or thinly disguised totalitarianism." (John Paul II Centesimus Annus). Could our democracy become a "thinly disguised totalitarianism"? Surely the Holy Father was not talking about Canada? In 1991, perhaps his words did not apply. They certainly do apply now. Canada is not a totalitarian state, but the totalitarian impulse is very thinly disguised indeed, and the signs on the horizon are ominous. "http://catholiceducation.org/article...n/pch0065.html
  #8  
Old Jul 26, '05, 1:27 pm
iamrefreshed iamrefreshed is offline
 
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Angry Re: Are we to fight Islamic totalitarian governments?

More on Islamic governments.......

With a Catholic Bishop as witness.

http://catholiceducation.org/article...n/pch0023.html
  #9  
Old Jul 26, '05, 2:05 pm
iamrefreshed iamrefreshed is offline
 
Join Date: April 7, 2005
Posts: 5,396
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Are we to fight Islamic totalitarian governments?

Not to belabor the point but one more article.....


http://catholiceducation.org/article...on/re0312.html
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