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  #61  
Old Mar 6, '12, 9:38 am
0thetrooth0 0thetrooth0 is offline
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
The point is not any faith in anything; the real point is that humans have the capability to think of something beyond one's natural environment. Go back to the dawn of human history. What do you find in oral stories? Explanations of what? Describe the talent of shamans.
its a fact that we humans only know about 5% of everything, in that 95% there couls be nature spirits, gods, God, other dimensions etc.

i do think there are other things beyond this physical world and out of the reach of our 5 senses but that doesnt mean God exists

shamans didnt dont believe in a personal God that rewards and punishes... so yea... u cant use shamans to justify ur point or ur beliefs because shamans dont agree with alot of what you believe

about shamans, theres stories about how they talk to animas and travel to other dimensions, lets say alot of this stuff is true, it only shows that there are things that we dont yet understand and that are beyond science and religion,

science is just barely understanding the world/universe it discovers new things everyday, quantum physcis, etc and also keep in mind that there are people in the higher realms of science that hide certain information for themselves

religion gives us a certain world view ,it gets us locked in that world view, faith doesnt give us the answers it only stops us from asking the questions
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  #62  
Old Mar 6, '12, 9:44 am
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Originally Posted by 0thetrooth0 View Post
its a fact that we humans only know about 5% of everything, in that 95% there couls be nature spirits, gods, God, other dimensions etc.

i do think there are other things beyond this physical world and out of the reach of our 5 senses but that doesnt mean God exists

shamans didnt dont believe in a personal God that rewards and punishes... so yea... u cant use shamans to justify ur point or ur beliefs because shamans dont agree with alot of what you believe

about shamans, theres stories about how they talk to animas and travel to other dimensions, lets say alot of this stuff is true, it only shows that there are things that we dont yet understand and that are beyond science and religion,

science is just barely understanding the world/universe it discovers new things everyday, quantum physcis, etc and also keep in mind that there are people in the higher realms of science that hide certain information for themselves

religion gives us a certain world view ,it gets us locked in that world view, faith doesnt give us the answers it only stops us from asking the questions

It seems to me that even if you are using 5% of everything that paints you in a smaller corner than choosing a religion.

You are wrong Faith gives more answers than just making your own worldview. I would like to pose a question to your extremely literal self. If we only know 5% of everything then how can we be sure that God doesn't exist?

Maybe this post should have started as "Hey guys I am going to tell you why I don't believe in God, over the course of many hours, and no matter how many ideas we come across I will not change my mind so have fun trying."
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  #63  
Old Mar 6, '12, 9:46 am
0thetrooth0 0thetrooth0 is offline
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Originally Posted by SonSearcher View Post
Atheists and agnostics should be very humble people who concern themselves with no religion at all. But most times they are too concerned with proving believers wrong. Instead of just accepting their place as a non-believer they seek out believers and try to change their mind.


This leads me to think that some of these folks must want to find God. The reason they seek us out to prove us wrong is to find the proof of existence. I think no human on earth can satisfactorily answer the question that was posed by the OP if he does not want to accept the undeniable Truth of the existence of God.

They say they want miracles, already happened. They want it in written form, point 'em to Aquinas. They want to see a true Christian, we shed light on the Saints in no particular order. Whatever we do isn't enough. It is God's call which will finally make the paradigm shift whole. Because that is what it is. A shift in the whole view of every aspect of human existence.

So we can argue until the Earth folds up like a scroll, or we can just pray for them. I prefer prayer. It is the single thing that will change the world.
i used to be comfortable with seeing a true christian, written form etc. but then i realized, that an all powerful being aka God can surely give us WAY better evidence/miracles/proofs
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  #64  
Old Mar 6, '12, 9:51 am
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Originally Posted by 0thetrooth0 View Post
i used to be comfortable with seeing a true christian, written form etc. but then i realized, that an all powerful being aka God can surely give us WAY better evidence/miracles/proofs
but that is the point. The evidence is all around us. He doesn't need to do anything else for you, you need to accept his existence and it will make sense. He is God and you are creation.

It is like a teacher student relationship, a father son relationship. The son doesn't question the existence of the father, he just accepts it.
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  #65  
Old Mar 6, '12, 9:54 am
0thetrooth0 0thetrooth0 is offline
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Truth Seeker/Leaker

what is a truth seeker/leaker?
its some complex stuff, but to put it simply its something around the lines of:

a truth seeker is someone who seeks the truth, who wants to know the truth, a truth leaker is somone who knows the truth and shares it

maybe will never know the truth

maybe certain people/beings/illuminati know the truth but will not share

maybe will only know the truth when we die

our minds are built in such a way that we cant be 100% sure what is the truth

..
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  #66  
Old Mar 6, '12, 9:57 am
hazcompat hazcompat is offline
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Originally Posted by 0thetrooth0 View Post
i used to be comfortable with seeing a true christian, written form etc. but then i realized, that an all powerful being aka God can surely give us WAY better evidence/miracles/proofs
Matthew 16:1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came and, to test him, asked him to show them a sign from heaven. 2* He said to them in reply, “[In the evening you say, ‘Tomorrow will be fair, for the sky is red’; 3b and, in the morning, ‘Today will be stormy, for the sky is red and threatening.’ You know how to judge the appearance of the sky, but you cannot judge the signs of the times.] 4c An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah.”* Then he left them and went away.

peace
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  #67  
Old Mar 6, '12, 10:08 am
0thetrooth0 0thetrooth0 is offline
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Originally Posted by SonSearcher View Post
but that is the point. The evidence is all around us. He doesn't need to do anything else for you, you need to accept his existence and it will make sense. He is God and you are creation.

It is like a teacher student relationship, a father son relationship. The son doesn't question the existence of the father, he just accepts it.
the son sees the father, we dont see God, see the difference? xtraordinary claims require xtraordinary evidence, period! end of story

if theists say God exists they must prove it, if atheists say God doesnt exist they most prove it, but they cant prove God doesnt exist, but we CAN prove God does exist, by seeing him, seeing xtraordinary miracles be performed by God right infront of us, etc

the evidence is all around us? all we can say is we see the sky the sun trees other people etc thats all we can say, eveyrthing we see hear, touch ,etc only proves that that particular thing exists

Einstein said something like we are like children in a big library, we dont know what the books are for or what were doing here...

a philosopher once said.. all i know is that i know nothing
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  #68  
Old Mar 6, '12, 10:12 am
jochoa jochoa is offline
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Originally Posted by 0thetrooth0 View Post
i used to be comfortable with seeing a true christian, written form etc. but then i realized, that an all powerful being aka God can surely give us WAY better evidence/miracles/proofs
My friend, please consider the following proofs:

Proof #1: www.gospelofcreation.com

Proof #2: The following is an intro to recognizing the Fullness of Truth:
1. We think, therefore we do not know, therefore we must have faith. Since you and I have faith, why not place our faith in something greater, something hopeful?
2a. One of the greatest hopes in dying is Heaven. In order to recognize a possibility for Heaven existing, one must ponder what was the first thing to exist as a physical substance. There are two options: the first thing had to either be living or non-living. If we assume the first thing is non-living, then all things up to the first life would have been non-living and would have had no ability to create a Heaven. Therefore a greater and more hopeful faith will not only place its trust in a Heaven, but also a single all-powerful God. Two reasons for a single all-powerful God are: 1. If we believe the first thing was living, then all things following came from that single living being. 2. If we believe the first thing created a Heaven and the living being created other all-powerful Gods, then the other Gods could destroy the Heaven and Earth that was created.
2b. Since every person wants and fulfills various wants, we all want happiness. However in order to experience a genuine happiness, there must be peace. And in order to have peace, there must be complete patience, and in order to experience any degree of happiness, there must be kindness. Therefore, it can be said that the greatest actions in living to master are patience and kindness for one will experience an unbreakable peace and perfect happiness. Next recognize that it is the Holy Bible that declares this first, "...the greatest of these is charity/love" 1 Corinthians 13:13 where "Charity/Love is Patient and Kind." 1 Corinthians 13:4.
At this point, one should also recognize that it is the Holy Bible that first declares, "Now these three remain: Faith, Hope, and Charity/Love." Given the wisdom of the Holy Bible is Truth, one has the option of crediting the Author(s) of the Holy Bible for the revelation of the Truth or one can discredit it. If one credits it, s/he will give all glory to the one God, Jesus Christ, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as well as credit to His Universal Church for overcoming the challenges of spreading the Word. If one discredits it, one will live as though they are self-made.

From this point, if one will ponder, talk about, and heavily focus on mastering patience, kindness, and motivation for God with all the body, spirit, thoughts, and will equally towards others and the self, for the sake of unbreakable peace, limitless happiness, and unstoppable energy as a society and individual, all other Truths of the Catholic Faith will become evident, especially because s/he will be striving to become one with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ.

My friend, I thoroughly enjoyed responding to you. You have helped me grow in understanding by asking questions, and I greatly appreciate you asking. May your day be filled with peace and happiness, and I look forward to further conversation!

Thoughts?
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My intentions for sharing these understandings is to grow myself and others closer to God - The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and Catholicism, AND to subject these reflections to harsh criticisms regarding alignment with Catholicism, for it is the Truth.
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  #69  
Old Mar 6, '12, 10:14 am
0thetrooth0 0thetrooth0 is offline
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Originally Posted by SonSearcher View Post
It seems to me that even if you are using 5% of everything that paints you in a smaller corner than choosing a religion.

You are wrong Faith gives more answers than just making your own worldview. I would like to pose a question to your extremely literal self. If we only know 5% of everything then how can we be sure that God doesn't exist?

Maybe this post should have started as "Hey guys I am going to tell you why I don't believe in God, over the course of many hours, and no matter how many ideas we come across I will not change my mind so have fun trying."
i didnt say God doesnt exist, some people including myself may say he does or doesnt exist, but all of humans deep inside KNOW that we dont KNOW if God exists or not.
Does God exist? i dont know
we should all say we dont know because we dont know! and stay in that neutrality
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  #70  
Old Mar 6, '12, 10:32 am
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Originally Posted by 0thetrooth0 View Post
i didnt say God doesnt exist, some people including myself may say he does or doesnt exist, but all of humans deep inside KNOW that we dont KNOW if God exists or not.
Does God exist? i dont know
we should all say we dont know because we dont know! and stay in that neutrality
no winking or thumbsup.

deep inside I know he exists. I look at the atmosphere and say it couldn't have been chaos that made that. I look at the angle of the earth and say, it is absolutely perfect, if it was even 1 degree to either way we would either burn up or freeze. It can't just be that way because it just so happened that way.

You are on a Catholic website, that promotes Catholic ideals and doctrine. You are peddling the non-existence of God because you are unsure.

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  #71  
Old Mar 6, '12, 10:37 am
hazcompat hazcompat is offline
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Originally Posted by 0thetrooth0 View Post
i didnt say God doesnt exist, some people including myself may say he does or doesnt exist, but all of humans deep inside KNOW that we dont KNOW if God exists or not.
Does God exist? i dont know
we should all say we dont know because we dont know! and stay in that neutrality
I know my redeemer lives!

peace
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  #72  
Old Mar 6, '12, 12:01 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Originally Posted by SonSearcher View Post
. A shift in the whole view of every aspect of human existence.

.
Obviously, the "whole view of every aspect of human existence" has taken a tremendous shift in this century and the last half of the 20th. That is why contemporary Catholic Apologetics has to defend human nature, itself.

If and when Catholics can focus on basic human nature beginning with the dawn of human history, a demonstration of God's existence is possible.

Post 55 is a lead-in as to how and why there can be a reasonable proof that God exists per the OP.

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....5&postcount=55
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  #73  
Old Mar 6, '12, 12:15 pm
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Originally Posted by grannymh View Post
Obviously, the "whole view of every aspect of human existence" has taken a tremendous shift in this century and the last half of the 20th. That is why contemporary Catholic Apologetics has to defend human nature, itself.

If and when Catholics can focus on basic human nature beginning with the dawn of human history, a demonstration of God's existence is possible.

Post 55 is a lead-in as to how and why there can be a reasonable proof that God exists per the OP.

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....5&postcount=55
But no matter how much the shift actually is in the last half of the 20th century, I am speaking to the fact that when you put God at the center, everything else makes sense. It falls into place. I am not speaking to how humans now interpret human existence, compared with times before.

I agree with the rest of your statement just needed to clarify.
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  #74  
Old Mar 6, '12, 1:01 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

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Originally Posted by 0thetrooth0 View Post
its a fact that we humans only know about 5% of everything, in that 95% there couls be nature spirits, gods, God, other dimensions etc.

i do think there are other things beyond this physical world and out of the reach of our 5 senses but that doesnt mean God exists

shamans didnt dont believe in a personal God that rewards and punishes... so yea... u cant use shamans to justify ur point or ur beliefs because shamans dont agree with alot of what you believe

about shamans, theres stories about how they talk to animas and travel to other dimensions, lets say alot of this stuff is true, it only shows that there are things that we dont yet understand and that are beyond science and religion,

science is just barely understanding the world/universe it discovers new things everyday, quantum physcis, etc and also keep in mind that there are people in the higher realms of science that hide certain information for themselves

religion gives us a certain world view ,it gets us locked in that world view, faith doesnt give us the answers it only stops us from asking the questions
This is a lot of interesting information. However, I need to rephrase my original questions found in post 55 so it is easier to go back to the dawn of human history.

Post 55, "The point is not any faith in anything; the real point is that humans have the capability to think of something beyond one's natural environment. Go back to the dawn of human history. What do you find in oral stories? Explanations of what? Describe the talent of shamans. "
Emphasis added in this post.

At the dawn of human history, before the development of a written language, traditions or history of the past were passed on orally. In Alaska, there are still oral stories being told. Some of these stories are similar to the written "myths" in other parts of the world. Stories or myths explained human history plus they were an attempt at explaining natural phenomena. Think about the stories of the Greek and Roman gods as a later history example. What ties these ancient stories together is "information" which goes beyond the natural environment. Whether or not the "information" is true is not the real point. See sentence in bold above.

Personally, I find shamans very interesting since their talents or skills differ from place to place.

This is from Othetrooth0's post 61.

"about shamans, theres stories about how they talk to animas and travel to other dimensions, lets say alot of this stuff is true, it only shows that there are things that we dont yet understand and that are beyond science and religion,"

What I would like to do is to shift the focus from things we don't understand, etc., back to the human person known as a "shaman". What is it that we do know about this person's human nature? This is a different question from one asking about a shaman's beliefs in a personal God that rewards and punishes.

Once we truly understand human nature, then one can use this understanding to demonstrate the existence of God.
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  #75  
Old Mar 6, '12, 1:10 pm
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Default Re: What would count as absolute proof that God exists?

This is the individual we are talking to. I think he needs prayers to help him along. We shouldn't be trying to defend ourselves here, we should be helping him through this spiritual crisis. I am personally sorry trooth, I will pray for you form now on. Here is one of his original posts.

Hi everyone, I would really appreciate it if you could pray for me. I am 20 years old, my mom is a strong Catholic. my mom prays for me and i am really really thankful for that. I am spiritually lost, im in a state of confusion, i dont know if there is a God or what he wants from me, what is the true religion,what happens after death, etc. i want to know The Truth. when i was little i was Catholic, probably because i was raised in a Catholic household. then i figured out Catholicism was the truth, so iwas Catholic for some time, then i became Atheist than Agnostic, than i started searching for "The Truth" and i came across Islam and other religions, then kabbalah and other similar teachings, to put it simply, i became a truth seeker, i am still truth seeking, when i remember i always ask God to show me the truth, to show me why is the truth or to give me a sign or a miracle or evidence, and to have mercy on me when i die. some of the things i feel is hopelessness, anger, depression, lack of motivation to live, sometimes suicidal, and confusion. I would really apreciate it if you could pray for me, it really brings me joy that there are people outthere kind enough to pray for someone even if they've never met them, nice people is one of the things that reminds me that life can be beautiful, Thank You very very much for your prayers.

He needs prayers not arguments. i underlined and bolded for emphasis
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