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  #31  
Old Mar 19, '12, 10:21 am
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Havard Havard is offline
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouyate42 View Post
Something major wouldd have to happen for this to happen. The American First Amendment guarantees the rights of Muslims to their religion, and my own country has a VERY long history of religious tolerance as well as legal protections of religious rights, including those of Muslims.

So unless the West tears up its entire legal system, this would likely never happen short of a extreme far-right group getting into power. Cerainly for the UK and Europe, the likes of the far-right BNP and France's Front National have never gained any real political power.
My question was not about whether or not it's likely to happen. My question is a hypothetical putting to test the Golden Rule. That said, what would be your answer to it?
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  #32  
Old Mar 19, '12, 10:38 am
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

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Originally Posted by Havard View Post
My question was not about whether or not it's likely to happen. My question is a hypothetical putting to test the Golden Rule. That said, what would be your answer to it?
I'd likely protest such a move, or should things become really bad and my personal freedom of religion was severely restricted and there was little I could do, then I would book the first flight to Iran or somewhere that I could get. I wouldn't stay in the country, despite me being a British citizen.
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  #33  
Old Mar 19, '12, 11:07 am
scipio337 scipio337 is offline
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouyate42 View Post
I'd likely protest such a move, or should things become really bad and my personal freedom of religion was severely restricted and there was little I could do, then I would book the first flight to Iran or somewhere that I could get. I wouldn't stay in the country, despite me being a British citizen.
Ahh, yes, Iran, the bastion of religious freedom in the Muslim world.

Unless, of course, you're not Shia.

I for one had no idea churches of any type could be built in Saudi Arabia.

I'm guessing he means "Churches are illegal in Saudi Arabia, but should should be destroyed everywhere else".

When are the riots and killings going to begin? Such is the response when a pastory with no authority burns a Qu'ran, or other "insults to Islam".
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  #34  
Old Mar 19, '12, 11:15 am
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

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Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post
Ahh, yes, Iran, the bastion of religious freedom in the Muslim world.

Unless, of course, you're not Shia.
Iran is better than some countries.

Quote:
I for one had no idea churches of any type could be built in Saudi Arabia.

I'm guessing he means "Churches are illegal in Saudi Arabia, but should should be destroyed everywhere else".

When are the riots and killings going to begin? Such is the response when a pastor with no authority burns a Qu'ran, or other "insults to Islam".
I'm unsure as to what you're getting at here, especially the last bit.

The Qur'an is the most holy book of all Islam, and burning it is a grievous insult to the bioolin Muslims who treasure the Qur'an above even themselves and their families.
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  #35  
Old Mar 19, '12, 11:18 am
GraceSofia GraceSofia is offline
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

Quote:
Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post

I for one had no idea churches of any type could be built in Saudi Arabia.
You're right: churches cannot be built in Saudi Arabia. There aren't any.

Quote:
I'm guessing he means "Churches are illegal in Saudi Arabia, but should should be destroyed everywhere else".
If he means everywhere on the Arabian Peninsula, that includes Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Oman, and Yemen (where an American teacher of English was just murdered for "proselytising").
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  #36  
Old Mar 19, '12, 11:32 am
Michael C Michael C is offline
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

It makes perfect sense that a country the U.S. has such strong ties with preaches such garbage.

Afterall the U.S. is the biggest promoter of Sharia law.

We helped Iraq craft their constitution which states Sharia law is the highest law of the land.

We helped Afghanistan craft their constitution which states Sharia law is the highest law of the land.

I wonder what the Lybian constitution will say after help from the west?
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  #37  
Old Mar 19, '12, 12:26 pm
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouyate42 View Post
Iran is better than some countries.
But worse than all but a FEW when it comes to religious freedom.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouyate42
I'm unsure as to what you're getting at here, especially the last bit.

The Qur'an is the most holy book of all Islam, and burning it is a grievous insult to the bioolin Muslims who treasure the Qur'an above even themselves and their families.
The point is a vicious double standard. The highest Sunni authority in the very seat of Sunni Islam has made this ruling, not a pastor in a backwater Florida church.

Christians won't be rioting or killing over this.

But it's not limited to only Qu'ran burnings. We could have the comments of a Miss World contestant:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2498931.stm

A teddy bear named Muhammed:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/wo...udan.html?_r=1

Or an editorial cartoon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4684652.stm

"Freedom and tolerance for me, but not for thee"


The article makes a very good point:

Quote:
Considering the hysteria that besets the West whenever non-authoritative individuals offend Islam for instance, a fringe, unknown pastor imagine what would happen if a Christian counterpart to the Grand Mufti, say the Pope, were to declare that all mosques in Italy must be destroyed...
.
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  #38  
Old Mar 19, '12, 12:39 pm
GraceSofia GraceSofia is offline
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

Quote:
Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post
The point is a vicious double standard. The highest Sunni authority in the very seat of Sunni Islam has made this ruling, not a pastor in a backwater Florida church.

Christians won't be rioting or killing over this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouyate42
The Qur'an is the most holy book of all Islam, and burning it is a grievous insult to the bioolin Muslims
What are bioolin Muslims?
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  #39  
Old Mar 19, '12, 1:42 pm
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

Quote:
Originally Posted by GraceSofia View Post


What are bioolin Muslims?
Keyboard went nuts there...


Quote:
Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post
But worse than all but a FEW when it comes to religious freedom.
Quote:
The point is a vicious double standard. The highest Sunni authority in the very seat of Sunni Islam has made this ruling, not a pastor in a backwater Florida church.

Christians won't be rioting or killing over this.

But it's not limited to only Qu'ran burnings. We could have the comments of a Miss World contestant:
.
Mocking the Prophet Muhammad is a great offense in Islam, and constitutes blasphemy in many Muslim countries, which with it carries anything from fines to imprisonment or the death penalty.
Free speech isn't really free in the sense that saying some things will gain a negative reaction and even legal action in some cases.

With regard to the teddy bear incident, she was attributing the holiest name in Islam to a created thing, an idol in effect, something the Qur'an condemns. I will concede the reaction of wanting the teacher dead was a little extreme, but as far as I'm concerned, she deserved a punishment.

As to the Qur'an burning pastor, he was little more than a troll and an attention-seeking one at that. He wanted to cause trouble, knew that fundamentalist Muslims would bite at what he planned to do and got the reaction he wanted in the end. I seem to remember the outrage even on CAF when a video was released depicting a statue of the Virgin Mary being smashed, so why the difference?

There was a time when Christians would have protested blasphemy, or damage to holy books/icons/items, or any other insult to their faith. But it seems that this does not happen now.
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  #40  
Old Mar 19, '12, 1:56 pm
scipio337 scipio337 is offline
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouyate42 View Post
Keyboard went nuts there...






Mocking the Prophet Muhammad is a great offense in Islam, and constitutes blasphemy in many Muslim countries, which with it carries anything from fines to imprisonment or the death penalty.
Free speech isn't really free in the sense that saying some things will gain a negative reaction and even legal action in some cases.
Last time I checked, destroying a church would be a pretty big offense to Christians.

Let the rioting commence!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouyate42
With regard to the teddy bear incident, she was attributing the holiest name in Islam to a created thing, an idol in effect, something the Qur'an condemns. I will concede the reaction of wanting the teacher dead was a little extreme, but as far as I'm concerned, she deserved a punishment.
Isn't a name a "created thing" also

"Blaspheming" a created thing with...another created thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouyate42
As to the Qur'an burning pastor, he was little more than a troll and an attention-seeking one at that. He wanted to cause trouble, knew that fundamentalist Muslims would bite at what he planned to do and got the reaction he wanted in the end. I seem to remember the outrage even on CAF when a video was released depicting a statue of the Virgin Mary being smashed, so why the difference?
I don't remember any riots, or deaths. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouyate42
There was a time when Christians would have protested blasphemy, or damage to holy books/icons/items, or any other insult to their faith. But it seems that this does not happen now.
Oh, we still protest them, but we also revere a quote by Voltaire:

Quote:
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
Muslims in the West want the same protections everyone has, and to avoid discrimination for their faith, but turn a blind eye to the injustices against non-Muslims in Muslim countries.

And we can't use the "just a few extremists!" defense in these cases.

This being "Exhibit A". "Well, Saudi Arabia is a holy land, so [i]of course /I] there shouldn't be any Christian churches there!"

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  #41  
Old Mar 19, '12, 2:14 pm
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Armyvet007 Armyvet007 is offline
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kouyate42 View Post
Mocking the Prophet Muhammad is a great offense in Islam, and constitutes blasphemy in many Muslim countries, which with it carries anything from fines to imprisonment or the death penalty.
Free speech isn't really free in the sense that saying some things will gain a negative reaction and even legal action in some cases.

Funny how the only prophet covered under this is Mohammad. One would think that Muslims would take similar offense to outrages against Jesus [who is claimed by Islam to be a great prophet.]

With regard to the teddy bear incident, she was attributing the holiest name in Islam to a created thing, an idol in effect, something the Qur'an condemns. I will concede the reaction of wanting the teacher dead was a little extreme, but as far as I'm concerned, she deserved a punishment.

The kids in the class named the bear. Read the article. The bear would only have been an idol if a)Mohammad was viewed as a diety and b) the teddy bear was worshipped. Also, I'm pretty sure Allah is supposed to be the holiest name in Islam.

As to the Qur'an burning pastor, he was little more than a troll and an attention-seeking one at that. He wanted to cause trouble, knew that fundamentalist Muslims would bite at what he planned to do and got the reaction he wanted in the end. I seem to remember the outrage even on CAF when a video was released depicting a statue of the Virgin Mary being smashed, so why the difference?

If you are using "fundamentalist" as it is commonly defined in regards to some Christian sects, it doesn't work here. Mainstream/majority of Muslims [as indicated by the worldwide mass outrage] would be more appropiate.

There was a time when Christians would have protested blasphemy, or damage to holy books/icons/items, or any other insult to their faith. But it seems that this does not happen now.

Protesting does not equal death threats, violence, vengence, etc.
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  #42  
Old Mar 19, '12, 2:21 pm
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

Quote:
Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post
Last time I checked, destroying a church would be a pretty big offense to Christians.

Let the rioting commence!!!
Again, if you read the article, the proposal would see existing churches remain, but no new ones built.

Quote:
Isn't a name a "created thing" also

"Blaspheming" a created thing with...another created thing?
The name Muhammad is more a title, meaning 'the blessed/chosen one'.

Quote:
I don't remember any riots, or deaths. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

Oh, we still protest them, but we also revere a quote by Voltaire:
Tolerance has bred the sort of situation now where Christian beliefs are constantly trashed and no-one says anything. Part of that reason is that for too long, Christians are told time and time again 'you must be tolerant' to the point where this means Christian beliefs are placed second, and people have then been told to shush when they DO protest. Eventually no-one bothers to say anything at all.

Quote:
Muslims in the West want the same protections everyone has, and to avoid discrimination for their faith, but turn a blind eye to the injustices against non-Muslims in Muslim countries.

And we can't use the "just a few extremists!" defense in these cases.

This being "Exhibit A". "Well, Saudi Arabia is a holy land, so [i]of course /I] there shouldn't be any Christian churches there!"

Ever heard of Jakarta Cathedral? It's in Indonesia, which the last time I checked was a majority MUSLIM country. Religious dialogue between the various religions is largely positive.

Ditto Iran whose Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian religions have legal protection and even seats in the Parliament. Same for Egypt, Turkey, Syria and Lebanon, all of which have legally recognized Christian and non-Muslim populations.

It's worth pointing out that there ARE non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia, although these are largely non-Saudi citizens of other nationalities. They are certainly not completely banned from practicing their faith, although public acts of worship are banned.

Most of these I've mentioned are free to practice their religion in peace, with some minor restrictions. But this is no different to the Western restriction on the wearing of the niqab, or the ban on calling the adhan (call to prayer) 5 times a day from the minarets, even in majority Muslim areas of towns and cities.
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  #43  
Old Mar 19, '12, 2:29 pm
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

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Originally Posted by Exsilivm View Post
I was rerferring to Turkey when it was the Ottoman Sultanate of Rum, not modern Turkey.
"Islam and the Church have co-existed for well over 1400 years. The Austrian empire had many Muslim subjects, as did Russia. The Ottomans had untold numbers of Christians within its vast domains. Extirpation of one religion was the exception - it happened in what is now Saudi Arabia for theological reasons, and in Spain for nationalistic reasons. Accomodation was the rule, as in Turkey up to the populaton exchange and in Albania and Bulgaria up to the present day."

The Ottoman Sultanate of Rum disappeared long before the population exchange. Also, review how the Ottoman's filled the ranks of the Janissaries. There are enough valid examples of peaceful co-existance that you don't need to skew history IOT find some.
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  #44  
Old Mar 19, '12, 2:35 pm
scipio337 scipio337 is offline
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

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Originally Posted by Kouyate42 View Post
..... It's worth pointing out that there ARE non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia, although these are largely non-Saudi citizens of other nationalities. They are certainly not completely banned from practicing their faith, although public acts of worship are banned.

Most of these I've mentioned are free to practice their religion in peace, with some minor restrictions. But this is no different to the Western restriction on the wearing of the niqab, or the ban on calling the adhan (call to prayer) 5 times a day from the minarets, even in majority Muslim areas of towns and cities.
This is the kind of moral equivalence I'm talking about.
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  #45  
Old Mar 19, '12, 2:38 pm
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Default Re: Destroy all churches in the Arabian Peninsula Saudi Grand Mufti

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Originally Posted by scipio337 View Post
This is the kind of moral equivalence I'm talking about.
At the end of the day, Saudi Arabia is a Muslim country and they are free to make such laws as they wish. Whether you personally agree with them is irrelevant, given you are neither Saudi citizen nor living in the country, whether that be as a citizen or a foreign immigrant.
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