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  #151  
Old May 3, '12, 12:08 pm
vz71 vz71 is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lynnvinc View Post
Here's something -- use the gas from shale for energy instead of flaring it.

For example, Iraq could meet all its electricity needs from that gas, but instead it is being flared, and lots of people there don't have adequate electricity. And we Americans also flare a lot of gas. I remember driving by such flaring, thinking, why don't they turn it into energy?

See: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...siness+News%29
I am uncertain if there is a technical reason they cannot use it.
But this makes sense. At the very least it could power the pump station itself.
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  #152  
Old May 3, '12, 12:16 pm
Ridgerunner Ridgerunner is online now
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimG View Post
I agree that we are not called to place the environment above humanity.

I like to look at the larger picture. I view human beings as a good, not as an evil. God created humans as composites of body and soul. He intended each one of us individually. He wants us to be here. He intended us to be fertile and multiply, to build civilizations based on families, to create technologies which would never arise through the operation of natural processes alone. Only human beings can innovate. That's a good thing, not a bad thing.

Cities thrive on growth. Small towns with shrinking populations shrivel up and die. The most thriving places are generally those with the greatest population density—New York, Mexico City, Hong Kong, Taiwan. I know of few New Yorkers who wish to move to Wallace, Kansas. They'd be bored.

Yet many nations have adopted no growth population policies which are leading them into eventual decline cause by a birth dearth. A declining population produces fewer pollutants, so one might say that's a good thing for the environment, but it will be a disaster for those nations in the throes of a depopulation crisis, both economically and culturally.

Humans actually take up very little of the space that earth provides. There's still lots of room. But we have a whole universe to explore, not just one planet.

Global warming is inevitable in the long run, if for no other reason than that our sun will eventually expand into a red giant star during the course of its normal life cycle. Humanity needs to have expanded outward by that point.
Reduction in population can result in greater, not lesser, environmental hazards. There was a town in my state that was losing population. Suddenly, their sewer system no longer worked. The problem, it turned out, was that there was not enough water going into the system anymore to make it flow. It was a major mess.

Picture for a moment a large city whose population has shrunk (Detroit might be an example, but it could be far worse there or elsewhere) so that house after house is abandoned, sewers not working, streets and utilities not maintained, crawling with vermin, rotting wood, and oxidizing metals; some poisonous like copper, insufficient water flow through the water system so the water supply becomes bacteria-laden, (that can happen and sometimes does) old gas and oil tanks rupturing and spilling onto the ground, paper and plastic blowing around with the wind. Picture large segments of countryside unattended by anyone, filled with refuse and feral animals.

I do not believe in MMGW. Nevertheless, I nuture fast-growing trees and grasses that trap a great deal of carbon. A lot of people can't do that. But when you get right down to it, the most the average person who is concerned about MMGW can do, as a practical matter, is what we ought to do anyway; live reasonably and consume modestly.

But we ought not to go overboard with it, resorting to drastic (and often bogus) "remedies" that won't make a bit of difference. Truth is, nothing anyone in this country does will make any significant difference in greenhouse gas emissions, since other nations of the earth, including those whose emissions are greater or nearly so, pay no attention to it whatever. We need to consider, too, how much suffering we can cause among the poor by making energy needlessly expensive, and due to a theory that is still controversial.
  #153  
Old May 3, '12, 2:21 pm
lynnvinc lynnvinc is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Here’s an idea for generating a bit of one’s electricity, SMALL VERTICAL WIND TURBINES – esp useful if one is already into alt energy projects at home, such as solar power, and have an inverter, etc. Some of these are do-it-yourself projects (also do google images for small vertical wind turbines for more possibilities):

This one is made by cutting apart PVC pipes so that the halves are mounted onto 12″ bicycle wheels from old kids’ bikes - http://ecorenovator.org/diy-vertical-axis-wind-turbine/



low profile rooftop wind turbine that will produce 500 watts of power in 28 MPH wind - http://greenenergytv.com/watch.php?v=105



There's lots lots more....
__________________
"The Lord God lives before whom I stand."
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"Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words."
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-- St. Therese of the Child Jesus
  #154  
Old May 3, '12, 7:06 pm
JimG JimG is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner View Post
Reduction in population can result in greater, not lesser, environmental hazards. There was a town in my state that was losing population. Suddenly, their sewer system no longer worked. The problem, it turned out, was that there was not enough water going into the system anymore to make it flow. It was a major mess.

Picture for a moment a large city whose population has shrunk (Detroit might be an example, but it could be far worse there or elsewhere) so that house after house is abandoned, sewers not working, streets and utilities not maintained, crawling with vermin, rotting wood, and oxidizing metals; some poisonous like copper, insufficient water flow through the water system so the water supply becomes bacteria-laden, (that can happen and sometimes does) old gas and oil tanks rupturing and spilling onto the ground, paper and plastic blowing around with the wind. Picture large segments of countryside unattended by anyone, filled with refuse and feral animals.

I do not believe in MMGW. Nevertheless, I nuture fast-growing trees and grasses that trap a great deal of carbon. A lot of people can't do that. But when you get right down to it, the most the average person who is concerned about MMGW can do, as a practical matter, is what we ought to do anyway; live reasonably and consume modestly.

But we ought not to go overboard with it, resorting to drastic (and often bogus) "remedies" that won't make a bit of difference. Truth is, nothing anyone in this country does will make any significant difference in greenhouse gas emissions, since other nations of the earth, including those whose emissions are greater or nearly so, pay no attention to it whatever. We need to consider, too, how much suffering we can cause among the poor by making energy needlessly expensive, and due to a theory that is still controversial.
Yes, depopulation is a very real threat, especially to smaller cities. There have been some towns who effectively forced out immigrants only to suffer disastrous economic consequences. And it will threaten larger cities, as you point out, with much greater consequences. I view the the emerging threat of depopulation to be a much greater threat than MMGW.

People are a necessary, productive and renewable resource.
  #155  
Old May 4, '12, 8:02 am
manualman manualman is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vz71 View Post
I am uncertain if there is a technical reason they cannot use it (waste gas burned in flares).
But this makes sense. At the very least it could power the pump station itself.
I might know the answer here. Might. There is a closed sanitary landfill not far from my house. It collects the methane generated by the rotting garbage, pumps it to a building where it is diverted about 90% of the year to a flare. It burns about 30 feet high like a beacon in the night in our area.

The other 10% of the year is the peak of summer when the flar vanishes. I thought this seemed odd that no methane is being emitted when one would expect maximum rotting to occur, and when I had a project working for Waste Management Corp, I asked about it. Turns out that many of their landfills are equipped with the machinery to refine and compress the garbage methane to a point where it is able to run a generator and produce electricity. But the cost of operating that machinery is so high that it is a money loser except when ComEd runs low on capacity and offers peak rates to cogeneration facilities to pump juice into the grid: hot summer weekdays.

I suspect the same is true of other flares. It likely costs more to capture and use that gas then it returns financially.
  #156  
Old May 4, '12, 12:05 pm
lynnvinc lynnvinc is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by manualman View Post
I might know the answer here. Might. There is a closed sanitary landfill not far from my house. It collects the methane generated by the rotting garbage, pumps it to a building where it is diverted about 90% of the year to a flare. It burns about 30 feet high like a beacon in the night in our area.

The other 10% of the year is the peak of summer when the flar vanishes. I thought this seemed odd that no methane is being emitted when one would expect maximum rotting to occur, and when I had a project working for Waste Management Corp, I asked about it. Turns out that many of their landfills are equipped with the machinery to refine and compress the garbage methane to a point where it is able to run a generator and produce electricity. But the cost of operating that machinery is so high that it is a money loser except when ComEd runs low on capacity and offers peak rates to cogeneration facilities to pump juice into the grid: hot summer weekdays.

I suspect the same is true of other flares. It likely costs more to capture and use that gas then it returns financially.
I had also heard that it is not conveniently located where they could turn it into energy cost-effectively (either by running it into the gas pipeline grid or using it to run generators, etc., and running it into the electrical grid).

RE the costs, they might not be so comparatively high if we were to cut all subsidies and tax-breaks to fossil fuels and nukes. Or at least even the playing field by giving some to turn landfill methane and gas flaring into energy.

I heard about one closed landfill that was turned into a golf course, and they used the methane to generate power to run the place.

Also, back in the mid-90s when I learned that sewage plants could turn their methane into energy, I contacted the one in Aurora, IL. They told me they were already do that and using the energy to run their sewage and waste water operations.
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  #157  
Old May 4, '12, 7:20 pm
lynnvinc lynnvinc is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun12 View Post
The single most effective thing you can do to reduce your carbon footprint is to not have children.
The single most effective thing you can do to eliminate all children is to keep on emitting GHGs at a high level (and the concomitant pollution/harms from doing things that cause more GHGs to be emitted -- like local and regional pollution). It may take some time, but eventually as all the knock-on effects of AGW and related problems play out over the centuries, it would accomplish that draconian task.

It seems to me that it is the anti-environmentalists who are the genocidal maniacs. Why do they hate children so very very much???

May God have mercy on their souls.
__________________
"The Lord God lives before whom I stand."
-- 1 Kings 17:1

"Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words."
-- St. Francis of Assisi

"I want to spend my Heaven doing good on Earth."
-- St. Therese of the Child Jesus
  #158  
Old May 8, '12, 11:29 am
lynnvinc lynnvinc is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Just posted this on another thread, and thought appropriate here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by manualman View Post
Lynne makes a good point about oil and the military subsidies that support it. I would actually support a law that made it required to amortize the cost of any war in an oil - exporting country to amortize the cost of that war over 15 years and pay for it via a tax on crude oil. THAT would be free market economics at work. What we have now where all taxpayers fund the military protection of the oil economy whether they use oil or not is central planning, not free markets!

But it has almost nothing to do with electricity. America is the Saudi Arabia of natural gas. We don't fight wars to keep the natural gas supplies flowing. There may come a day when Americans are willing to allow the power company to turn off their AC units if the wind isn't blowing hard enough to make the juice needed. But it ain't today, so power companies DO need to build enough fossil fuel peaker plants to back up the wind farms.
Well, you are right as it stands re electricity and the need for other than wind sources.

Even nuke needs some type of back up peaking plants for high demand times, since it has to run fairly constantly 24/7. We had a ComEd guy come to our parish environmental committee meeting in Aurora, IL in the mid-90s and we discussed it with him (ComEd runs on 75% nuke, 25% coal), and he suggested some water reservoir idea, whereby the water is pumped up by nuke into a higher level reservoir during the non-peak times, then released to generate hydro-electric power during peak times (I think it's being done in some places). I got into talking about EVs that the Fox Valley EV Association (meets at COD) were converting and those slated to be produced in the future by auto companies, and he got all excited. He said if enough people were plugging in their EVs at night, during non-peak times, ComEd might be able to cut its electricity rate even in half!

I think wind might be able to supply maybe 20% or 30% of our electricity demands. And solar, nukes, and hydro some more, maybe up to 50% or so all combined. Since America is only at 3% wind power now, there is a great ways to go. Iowa is generating 20% of its electricity from wind right now.

And they are working on various other ideas like geothermal, tidal power ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power ) and air-borne wind turbines (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_wind_turbine ), etc.

Also algae fuel (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofuel_from_algae ), fuel from a fungus that produces a fuel nearly identical to diesel fuel (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1103192319.htm ) other biofuels from other non-food sources. There are lots of ideas out there and experiments going on, some of which could pan out and help supplement our energy needs.

Then there is the 5th energy source -- efficiency/conservation. It's been calculated that our American economy could reduce its energy demand by over 75% cost-effectively through these means without lowering productivity (see http://www.rmi.org and http://www.natcap.org ).

We reduced our household energy demand by some 30% or so from 1990-95 cost-effecitively without even doing everything we could have done (I was keeping records for years back in the early 90s, even figuring in the monthly average temps, provided by the gas co, and saw our gas bill go down and our electricity bill plummet). This was before we went on 100% wind power here in Texas in 2002, and then just recently got a Volt.

Energy reduction also includes "reduce & reuse," bec there is an energy component in every product & in water (esp hot water). We'd been frugal before; we just become somewhat more frugal after 1990 in our efforts to reduce our harms. Aurora, IL had really great garage sales -- a good reuse measure. I also had a bike there and off-set some driving by cycling -- which is good for the health, reduces neighborhood crime, and (I felt) good for the spirit. Just be sure the bicycle routes re safe enough from reckless drivers, if you plan to do some cycling.

So my guessimate is that beyond our initial 30% or so cut in energy use, with wind power and our Volt we've perhaps cut our fossil fuel energy use by maybe 60 to 70% (all measures combined). And, with nearly everything we have been doing for this fossil fuel reduction either saving us money or not costing.

If one puts their mind and heart into it, and calls on God in prayer, nothing is impossible!
__________________
"The Lord God lives before whom I stand."
-- 1 Kings 17:1

"Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words."
-- St. Francis of Assisi

"I want to spend my Heaven doing good on Earth."
-- St. Therese of the Child Jesus
  #159  
Old May 8, '12, 8:05 pm
lynnvinc lynnvinc is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Here's something interesting I just ran across -- the International J of Low-Carbon Technologies, http://ijlct.oxfordjournals.org/ . It is not open-source and it seems pretty technical, but one could read the abstracts.

And then there is Mother Earth News (to which my sister gave me a year's subscription back in the early 80s) -- chocked full of neat ideas: http://www.motherearthnews.com/
__________________
"The Lord God lives before whom I stand."
-- 1 Kings 17:1

"Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words."
-- St. Francis of Assisi

"I want to spend my Heaven doing good on Earth."
-- St. Therese of the Child Jesus
  #160  
Old May 9, '12, 6:21 am
beischel beischel is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

People are fools to think they can stop global warming when it is actually caused by climate cycle and not man made as some misguided people think. Proof is that as carbon dioxide levels have increased, the temperature has not increased along with it. In fact, the average temperature has dropped slightly. This is a warming period that is occurring naturally as they have occurred in earth's history in the past. BTW as further proof, scientists have recorded that nine glaciers are growing in size. They could not grow if it were getting warmer.

The climate freaks are using the imagined crisis as another means of trying to take more money from more people. It's all about the money folks.
  #161  
Old May 9, '12, 10:06 am
vz71 vz71 is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beischel View Post
The climate freaks are using the imagined crisis as another means of trying to take more money from more people. It's all about the money folks.
But some of the ideas coming from this can be utilized to increase economic efficiency overall.
Which means more cash flow and more propsperity.

One need not agree with the motivations to agree when a given idea is a good one.
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  #162  
Old May 9, '12, 12:16 pm
lynnvinc lynnvinc is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by beischel View Post
People are fools to think they can stop global warming when it is actually caused by climate cycle and not man made as some misguided people think. Proof is that as carbon dioxide levels have increased, the temperature has not increased along with it. In fact, the average temperature has dropped slightly. This is a warming period that is occurring naturally as they have occurred in earth's history in the past. BTW as further proof, scientists have recorded that nine glaciers are growing in size. They could not grow if it were getting warmer.

The climate freaks are using the imagined crisis as another means of trying to take more money from more people. It's all about the money folks.
See, using terms like "fools" and "freaks" is unwise, especially when the scientists have a lot of education and are considering a large number variables.

Scientists and those who know well about AGW have never claimed that GHGs, such as CO2, are the ONLY factor that determines climate. For instance (just to bring in one other factor out of many) during the past 11 years there has been a decline in solar irradiance in the sun's short-term sunspot cycle; see from Wikipedia re Solar Variation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_a...ce_measurement.


As you can see there has been a downswing since about 2000, during which time we would have expected a significant decrease in global average temp....down to the level of that around 1975 (when there was another solar minimum), but has it stayed well above that figure.

There was also a strong "la niña" in 2011 which caused it to be cooler than the previous year. La niñas and el niños are natural fluctuations that contribute to the climate zig-zagging year to year, which is one reason longer than 10 year trends need to be studied. The main point is, despite these cooling factors (less solar irradiance and la niña) the temps are still way above the 70s and before temps.



Scientists have been aware of the greenhouse effect for nearly 200 years, and it explains why earth is 33C warmer than it would be without it (making life on earth possible); it is based on laws of physics -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect -- and except for an article in an obscure Hungarian journal, no scientist nor their dog are disputing the GH effect. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0vj-...yer_detailpage

As for making money off of AGW -- that's true. Only the "in" people have privy info on this and are making a big bundle on it.

I suppose it wouldn't be in violation of anything if I told you the secret insider information, so here goes:
  • Turn off lights not in use
  • Become energy/resource efficient/conservative
  • Install low-flow showerheads & toilets
  • Insulate your home and caulk around windows
  • Move close to work & shops (ABC News just did a special Mon nite on how longer commutes can lead to health problems and divorces)
  • Next time building a home, build a passive solar home (orienting big windows on south, etc).
  • Plant deciduous trees that shade home and yard in summer, and allow sun to warm them in winter.
  • Turn off engine in drive-thrus (and order the veggie burger)
  • Offset some driving with walking & cycling -- not only saves money & the earth, but is good for the health and spirit
  • Eat low on the food-chain (also good for the health)
  • Get a solar clothes dryer (rope & clothes pins)
  • Water garden only in the early morning or late afternoon
  • Xeriscape (plant drought resistent plants that don't need watering)
  • Hypermile (reduce gas expenses by 10 to 50% -- also saves on break repairs)
  • Reduce (don't by junk you really don't need or want)
  • Reuse -- use reusable cups, napkins; use the clean back sides of paper; buy things that last.
  • Buy energy efficient appliances.
  • Turn off vents in rooms that don't need cooling/heating
  • Wear sweaters/sweats indoors during cold winters and short-sleeves during summers & adjust thermostat to save $$ & the earth.
  • Carpool
  • Run multiple errands, planned so as to reduce driving.
  • look for other tips on this thread
  • do your own searches for tips & let us know about them
  • pray to God for other tips, and esp for the grace to implement them
__________________
"The Lord God lives before whom I stand."
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"Preach the Gospel at all times and if necessary use words."
-- St. Francis of Assisi

"I want to spend my Heaven doing good on Earth."
-- St. Therese of the Child Jesus
  #163  
Old May 9, '12, 6:29 pm
CarolVP CarolVP is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Sorry, but I don't understand. Why would anyone be seeking to mitigate against something that isn't happening? It's the same as continuing to study Peking Man for scientific information.

Save money by whatever means at your disposal, but there's no point in attempting to deal with a non-issue. World-wide temperatures peaked around 1997/1998.

Keep your own environment in good order and in pristine condition, by all means, but don't waste time and effort on futile attempts to change something that can't be changed.

(Yeah, I know that this is not the forum for discussing it, but surely one would make sure some catastrophic event is actually going to occur before making plans to do something about it. )
  #164  
Old May 9, '12, 6:32 pm
TheRealJuliane TheRealJuliane is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarolVP View Post
Sorry, but I don't understand. Why would anyone be seeking to mitigate against something that isn't happening? It's the same as continuing to study Peking Man for scientific information.

Save money by whatever means at your disposal, but there's no point in attempting to deal with a non-issue. World-wide temperatures peaked around 1997/1998.

Keep your own environment in good order and in pristine condition, by all means, but don't waste time and effort on futile attempts to change something that can't be changed.

(Yeah, I know that this is not the forum for discussing it, but surely one would make sure some catastrophic event is actually going to occur before making plans to do something about it. )
This will be a fruitless argument. The posters who argue for AGW are completely convinced that it is real, that it is happening, and that we can do something about it. Completely convinced. There is absolutely NOTHING you can say that will make a dent or any impact in their belief system. No amount of facts, no amount of data, NOTHING will make an impact. It's really silly. Except that some of them reside in political offices where they can actually restrict our lives based on their erroneous beliefs. That's a problem.
  #165  
Old May 9, '12, 7:40 pm
Luna Lovecraft Luna Lovecraft is offline
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Default Re: How can we mitigate global warming?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane View Post
This will be a fruitless argument. The posters who argue for AGW are completely convinced that it is real, that it is happening, and that we can do something about it. Completely convinced. There is absolutely NOTHING you can say that will make a dent or any impact in their belief system. No amount of facts, no amount of data, NOTHING will make an impact. It's really silly. Except that some of them reside in political offices where they can actually restrict our lives based on their erroneous beliefs. That's a problem.
And it's an argument best left to another thread. Don't derail this one, please.
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