Catholic FAQ


Help support Catholic Answers!

Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Eastern Catholicism
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #1  
Old Mar 20, '12, 9:42 am
MrPip MrPip is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2010
Posts: 276
Religion: Catholic
Default Commemoration of the Pope

Are there Eastern Catholics, either clergy or laity, but especially clergy, who have objected or currently object to commemorating the Pope during the Divine Liturgy, as required by Canon 209 of the CCEO? If so, what might their reasons be?

Thanks!

Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old Mar 20, '12, 1:08 pm
Wesley1982 Wesley1982 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: March 20, 2012
Posts: 27
Default Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Not that I know of - I think the Eastern Catholic Rite is part of the RCC.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old Mar 20, '12, 1:09 pm
5Loaves 5Loaves is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2009
Posts: 3,103
Religion: Catholic: Russian Greek Catholic, & Latin Church catechist
Default Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPip View Post
Are there Eastern Catholics, either clergy or laity, but especially clergy, who have objected or currently object to commemorating the Pope during the Divine Liturgy, as required by Canon 209 of the CCEO? If so, what might their reasons be?

Thanks!

Jeff
We commemorate all our heirarchs, including "Benedict, Pope of Rome" in our DL.

Recently reposed +Pope Shenouda III of blessed memory was commemorated among the reposed in our DL on Sunday.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old Mar 20, '12, 1:28 pm
MrPip MrPip is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2010
Posts: 276
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5Loaves View Post
We commemorate all our heirarchs, including "Benedict, Pope of Rome" in our DL.

Recently reposed +Pope Shenouda III of blessed memory was commemorated among the reposed in our DL on Sunday.
I ask because there was a discussion on another (Orthodox) board in which there was an implication that Canon 209 of the CCEO constituted what one poster called an "imposed latinization". When something is "imposed" upon someone or something else it is not usually seen in a positive light, rather that it is being forced upon them unwillingly. It was asked if Eastern Catholic bishops would object to commemorating the Pope during the DL because of this imposition, but no really clear answer was given. So, I just thought I'd ask here and see what came up .

It would seem paradoxical to me that a Catholic bishop, whether Eastern or Western, would have any such objection and still want to remain "Catholic".
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old Mar 20, '12, 2:07 pm
5Loaves 5Loaves is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2009
Posts: 3,103
Religion: Catholic: Russian Greek Catholic, & Latin Church catechist
Default Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPip View Post
I ask because there was a discussion on another (Orthodox) board in which there was an implication that Canon 209 of the CCEO constituted what one poster called an "imposed latinization". When something is "imposed" upon someone or something else it is not usually seen in a positive light, rather that it is being forced upon them unwillingly. It was asked if Eastern Catholic bishops would object to commemorating the Pope during the DL because of this imposition, but no really clear answer was given. So, I just thought I'd ask here and see what came up .

It would seem paradoxical to me that a Catholic bishop, whether Eastern or Western, would have any such objection and still want to remain "Catholic".
As well there are those who consider the whole of the CCEO a latinization...

Frankly, if you know our litanies, we pray for every conceivable person in the whole world several times over during the DL of St John Chrysostom, and now in Great Lent with the DL of St Basil the Great even more precisely do we enumerate every imaginable person for whom we pray.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old Mar 20, '12, 2:23 pm
MrPip MrPip is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2010
Posts: 276
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5Loaves View Post
As well there are those who consider the whole of the CCEO a latinization...

Frankly, if you know our litanies, we pray for every conceivable person in the whole world several times over during the DL of St John Chrysostom, and now in Great Lent with the DL of St Basil the Great even more precisely do we enumerate every imaginable person for whom we pray.


I remember the litanies well, and always liked them very much. It struck me as particularly odd that any Catholic would have any kind of objection at all to any other Catholic, especially the Pope, being commemorated And if CCEO or any part of it was so problematic, why would those Eastern churches that accepted it accept it?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old Mar 20, '12, 2:26 pm
5Loaves 5Loaves is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2009
Posts: 3,103
Religion: Catholic: Russian Greek Catholic, & Latin Church catechist
Default Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPip View Post
And if CCEO or any part of it was so problematic, why would those Eastern churches that accepted it accept it?
This I suggest you start in a new thread.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old Mar 20, '12, 5:05 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 5, 2004
Posts: 11,826
Religion: Olde fashioned Christian
Smile Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPip View Post
I ask because there was a discussion on another (Orthodox) board in which there was an implication that Canon 209 of the CCEO constituted what one poster called an "imposed latinization". When something is "imposed" upon someone or something else it is not usually seen in a positive light, rather that it is being forced upon them unwillingly. It was asked if Eastern Catholic bishops would object to commemorating the Pope during the DL because of this imposition, but no really clear answer was given. So, I just thought I'd ask here and see what came up .
Probably because in the pre-schism church the Eastern Catholics did not commemorate the Patriarch of Rome/Pope of Rome in the parishes and monasteries. That was done only in the cathedrals of the Patriarchs.

In the parishes the hierarchy of the particular church was commemorated. Thus they commemorated their own patriarch and no others, and their own patriarch commemorated his peers (of which there would be several).

Likewise, in the pre-schism church the Western Catholic parishes and monasteries did not commemorate the Eastern Patriarchs (they still do not), just their own patriarch in Rome, the commemoration of the other patriarchs was done in Rome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPip View Post
It would seem paradoxical to me that a Catholic bishop, whether Eastern or Western, would have any such objection and still want to remain "Catholic".
Modern Eastern Catholic bishops in the diaspora are appointed by the Pope of Rome, and often got their training in Latin institutions as well, so don't expect any arguments coming from that corner.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old Mar 21, '12, 12:34 am
Paul theApostle's Avatar
Paul theApostle Paul theApostle is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Posts: 1,907
Default Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
. That was done only in the cathedrals of the Patriarchs.
Do you know what kind of commemeration?

was it silently by the preist over the Holy communion preparations or read aloud during the Litany?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old Mar 21, '12, 4:45 am
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 5, 2004
Posts: 11,826
Religion: Olde fashioned Christian
Default Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul theApostle View Post
Do you know what kind of commemeration?

was it silently by the preist over the Holy communion preparations or read aloud during the Litany?
In the diptychs for sure, there are historical references to it.

Wherever you see an Orthodox parish (Priest or Deacon) commemorate it's own Metropolitan or Patriarch, the Patriarch would commemorate his fellow Patriarchs. This is still the practice in Orthodox churches.

Sometimes (rarely) it happens that some church leader can not be commemorated by his peers. To be 'struck from the Diptychs' is to be removed from commemoration for some lapse in behavior or whatever. It is a type of admonition to straighten up. It is not an excommunication but something like a warning. Of course, if communion is broken for some serious reason the person will not be commemorated.

Normally all the peers are recognized by a Patriarch in the diptychs of his worship.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old Mar 21, '12, 6:10 am
Paul theApostle's Avatar
Paul theApostle Paul theApostle is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2010
Posts: 1,907
Default Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
In the diptychs for sure, there are historical references to it.

Wherever you see an Orthodox parish (Priest or Deacon) commemorate it's own Metropolitan or Patriarch, the Patriarch would commemorate his fellow Patriarchs. This is still the practice in Orthodox churches.

Sometimes (rarely) it happens that some church leader can not be commemorated by his peers. To be 'struck from the Diptychs' is to be removed from commemoration for some lapse in behavior or whatever. It is a type of admonition to straighten up. It is not an excommunication but something like a warning. Of course, if communion is broken for some serious reason the person will not be commemorated.

Normally all the peers are recognized by a Patriarch in the diptychs of his worship.
Ok

Im not sure exactly what 'Diptychs' is

is it anything to do with commemerations done in the preperation of the Communion/holy gifts?

Thanks tiger
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old Mar 21, '12, 1:35 pm
MrPip MrPip is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2010
Posts: 276
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hesychios View Post
Probably because in the pre-schism church the Eastern Catholics did not commemorate the Patriarch of Rome/Pope of Rome in the parishes and monasteries. That was done only in the cathedrals of the Patriarchs.

In the parishes the hierarchy of the particular church was commemorated. Thus they commemorated their own patriarch and no others, and their own patriarch commemorated his peers (of which there would be several).

Likewise, in the pre-schism church the Western Catholic parishes and monasteries did not commemorate the Eastern Patriarchs (they still do not), just their own patriarch in Rome, the commemoration of the other patriarchs was done in Rome.
Modern Eastern Catholic bishops in the diaspora are appointed by the Pope of Rome, and often got their training in Latin institutions as well, so don't expect any arguments coming from that corner.
I know that Eastern Catholic bishops are ultimately appointed by the Pope, but isn't that after a list of vetted (by other Eastern Catholic bishops)candidates has been presented to him and/or with consultation with the Eastern eparchy in question?

I guess it boils down, for me anyway, to asking, as I did above, if there are Eastern *Catholic* Christians who are either bishops, priests, or laity who have a problem with the commemoration of the Holy Father, why do they remain in the *Catholic* Church?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old Mar 21, '12, 2:33 pm
RyanBlack's Avatar
RyanBlack RyanBlack is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2010
Posts: 1,914
Religion: Ruthenian Catholic
Default Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPip View Post
I know that Eastern Catholic bishops are ultimately appointed by the Pope, but isn't that after a list of vetted (by other Eastern Catholic bishops)candidates has been presented to him and/or with consultation with the Eastern eparchy in question?

I guess it boils down, for me anyway, to asking, as I did above, if there are Eastern *Catholic* Christians who are either bishops, priests, or laity who have a problem with the commemoration of the Holy Father, why do they remain in the *Catholic* Church?
Not all Eastern Catholic bishops are appointed by the Pope. It depends upon the status of the particular Eastern Church, and whether the bishop is appointed to a see in the traditional territory.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old Mar 21, '12, 2:41 pm
mardukm mardukm is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: August 16, 2005
Posts: 10,881
Religion: Orthodox in Communion w/ Rome (Copt)
Default Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanBlack View Post
Not all Eastern Catholic bishops are appointed by the Pope. It depends upon the status of the particular Eastern Church, and whether the bishop is appointed to a see in the traditional territory.
Even in the "diaspora," not all non-Latin bishops are appointed by the Pope. They can be transferred by the Synod or promoted from a co-adjutor position.

Blessings,
Marduk
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old Mar 21, '12, 3:08 pm
Hesychios Hesychios is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 5, 2004
Posts: 11,826
Religion: Olde fashioned Christian
Smile Re: Commemoration of the Pope

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPip View Post
I know that Eastern Catholic bishops are ultimately appointed by the Pope, but isn't that after a list of vetted (by other Eastern Catholic bishops)candidates has been presented to him and/or with consultation with the Eastern eparchy in question?
The final decision rests with the Pope, and if he does not like the candidates he will send the list back and wait for one that suits him.

Also, some Eastern Catholic churches are so small there is no synod to speak of and the matter rest entirely in Rome. There are even some EC Sees that the Pope has decided to leave vacant. There is nothing to be done about it, the faithful have to accept that.

The Pope is also the codifier of the Canons, and he has the power to dispense with the canons or change them if necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPip View Post
I guess it boils down, for me anyway, to asking, as I did above, if there are Eastern *Catholic* Christians who are either bishops, priests, or laity who have a problem with the commemoration of the Holy Father, why do they remain in the *Catholic* Church?
This is an extremely odd question. No one could answer such a question.

Why not ask if there are any Latin bishops who have a problem with it? Same issue, there is no reason why they should object.

It's like asking if any generals have a problem saluting the President. Why should the Marines be any different from the Army and Air Force?

Eastern Catholic churches do not have a will of their own, they are under the Pope and follow the policies and practices set before them, sometimes with anxiety but often quite eagerly.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Eastern Catholicism

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8019Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: GLam8833
4810CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: UpUpAndAway
4281Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: flower lady
4027OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: fencersmother
3809SOLITUDE
Last by: Prairie Rose
3355Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3177Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: 4elise
3139Poems and Reflections
Last by: PathWalker
2953For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: flower lady
2670Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 1:43 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2013, Catholic Answers.