Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Social Justice
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #16  
Old Mar 23, '12, 12:50 am
ACCT ACCT is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2012
Posts: 541
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by timotheos View Post
Yes, it is an intrinsic attack on this basic human right, and if it applies to the unborn, it necessarily applies to everyone. Once the court decides not to recognize abortion as murder, it becomes arbitrary how it then chooses to limit the definition of murder --- a definition subject to convenience.

If one person can decide without consequence whether another human being may continue to exist, we then do not all live under the same transcendent set of rules, and justice is not possible. The court, the laws, and indeed the nation itself, lose the foundation upon which they were created. After thousands of years, it turns out we are no better off than Abel.
On atheism, Solzhenitsyn writes, “It has made man the measure of all things on earth – imperfect man, who is never free of pride, self-interest, envy, vanity, and dozens of other defects. We have lost the concept of a Supreme Complete Entity which used to restrain our passions and our irresponsibility.”

The ideas of the source of legitimate law were being formulated by the Catholic Church before the Magna Carta. Truth always goes back to the source of truth, which is public revelation, commonly known as the Holy Scriptures.

ANY CIVIL LAW IN TRANSGRESSION OF DIVINE LAW IS INVALID! An unjust law is no law at all! Such laws are to be defied because they do not exist. There is no basis for them.

Bottom Line: Roe versus Wade is not worth the paper on which it is written. Any civil law supporting abortion is invalid!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old Mar 24, '12, 2:48 am
King Lazy King Lazy is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2012
Posts: 403
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACCT View Post
ANY CIVIL LAW IN TRANSGRESSION OF DIVINE LAW IS INVALID! An unjust law is no law at all! Such laws are to be defied because they do not exist. There is no basis for them.

Bottom Line: Roe versus Wade is not worth the paper on which it is written. Any civil law supporting abortion is invalid!
Completely right. Divine law is above human law. We owe zero allegiance to such laws because they are not legitimate laws.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old Mar 24, '12, 3:27 am
Perplexity Perplexity is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2010
Posts: 1,074
Religion: Philosopher
Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmondi View Post
I learned in science class that doctors can detect heart beats around 18 days after conception. Brain waves can be detected around 40 days. Abortions are performed on average between 7 and 11 weeks. Let's do some 1st grade math. 7 weeks = 49 days. If a heart beat, a sign of LIFE, can be heard around 18, and brain waves, the second sign of LIFE, around 40, doesn't that make abortion murder?

This troubles me, because in a world where we lose so many souls to abortion with so little guilt ( if any at all ) for this, people still deny it as murder. What is your opinion?
Have you studied neonatal perception at all? The wiki article should suffice on this point:

"The accepted hypothesis of the means by which pain is perceived states that it requires certain physical structures and operations. These are not formed in fetuses until 30 weeks or more. The consensus of the scientific community at this time is that only fetuses of this age or older are capable of perceiving pain."

Let's take the properties you've listed and see if there are other things in nature that have them, and whether killing them would be murder.

Properties:

1. Heart beat.
2. Brain waves.

Well, that gives us a huge domain of objects. So, apparently whenever we have an animal put down, we're committing murder. Whenever we kill a fly, or step on an ant we're committing murder. Whenever we hunt and kill deer, elk, pheasants, or ducks, we're committing murder. I could continue, but I think the preceding should suffice to get the point across.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old Mar 24, '12, 6:36 am
ACCT ACCT is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2012
Posts: 541
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perplexity View Post
Have you studied neonatal perception at all? The wiki article should suffice on this point:

"The accepted hypothesis of the means by which pain is perceived states that it requires certain physical structures and operations. These are not formed in fetuses until 30 weeks or more. The consensus of the scientific community at this time is that only fetuses of this age or older are capable of perceiving pain."

Let's take the properties you've listed and see if there are other things in nature that have them, and whether killing them would be murder.

Properties:

1. Heart beat.
2. Brain waves.

Well, that gives us a huge domain of objects. So, apparently whenever we have an animal put down, we're committing murder. Whenever we kill a fly, or step on an ant we're committing murder. Whenever we hunt and kill deer, elk, pheasants, or ducks, we're committing murder. I could continue, but I think the preceding should suffice to get the point across.
“A fisherman once told me that fish have neither sense nor sensation, but how he knew this, he could not tell me (Bertrand Russell).”

The Medical Research Council in August 2001 said that pain perception in an unborn child may be as early as 20 weeks. Other studies say that pain perception could be as early as 10 weeks. The Lancet, a British Medical Journal, said that painkillers should be used on the fetus. “This applies not just to diagnostic and therapeutic procedures on the fetus, but possibly also to the termination of pregnancy, especially by surgical techniques involving dismemberment.”

“…the most fervent don't do anything to actually REDUCE UNWANTED PREGNANCY.”
Have you heard of the law of unintended consequences? By trying to reduce unwanted pregnancies, we have actually increased the number of unwanted pregnancies. However, contraception needs to be the subject of another thread.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old Mar 24, '12, 7:00 am
Perplexity Perplexity is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2010
Posts: 1,074
Religion: Philosopher
Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACCT View Post
“A fisherman once told me that fish have neither sense nor sensation, but how he knew this, he could not tell me (Bertrand Russell).”

The Medical Research Council in August 2001 said that pain perception in an unborn child may be as early as 20 weeks. Other studies say that pain perception could be as early as 10 weeks. The Lancet, a British Medical Journal, said that painkillers should be used on the fetus. “This applies not just to diagnostic and therapeutic procedures on the fetus, but possibly also to the termination of pregnancy, especially by surgical techniques involving dismemberment.”

“…the most fervent don't do anything to actually REDUCE UNWANTED PREGNANCY.”
Have you heard of the law of unintended consequences? By trying to reduce unwanted pregnancies, we have actually increased the number of unwanted pregnancies. However, contraception needs to be the subject of another thread.
You seem to be citing Fr. Pavone's article. He didn't cite his sources though, and they seem difficult to find. Here's my source.

But, my remark was directed at the OP's claims, which included the claim that abortions generally take place before 12 weeks. So, I think we can grant what the Medical Research Council allegedly said, and infer that as far as the OP's remarks, almost no abortion would involve fetal pain. Pavone does say some studies indicate fetal pain even earlier, but that's about as vague a reference as they get.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old Mar 24, '12, 9:45 am
ACCT ACCT is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2012
Posts: 541
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perplexity View Post
You seem to be citing Fr. Pavone's article. He didn't cite his sources though, and they seem difficult to find. Here's my source.

But, my remark was directed at the OP's claims, which included the claim that abortions generally take place before 12 weeks. So, I think we can grant what the Medical Research Council allegedly said, and infer that as far as the OP's remarks, almost no abortion would involve fetal pain. Pavone does say some studies indicate fetal pain even earlier, but that's about as vague a reference as they get.
Personally, the most scientific and logical argument for the life present in a mother's womb is the following:
• When an egg is fertilized by sperm, the two gametic cells become a zygote containing a genetic code completely different from that of the mother or father.
• This zygote at that moment is in every sense of the word, "alive." It is undergoing the necessary metabolic processes needed to sustain life.
• By removing the zygote or the cells that the zygote transforms into during embryonic growth, a human life is terminated.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old Mar 24, '12, 10:16 am
Perplexity Perplexity is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2010
Posts: 1,074
Religion: Philosopher
Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACCT View Post
Personally, the most scientific and logical argument for the life present in a mother's womb is the following:
• When an egg is fertilized by sperm, the two gametic cells become a zygote containing a genetic code completely different from that of the mother or father.
• This zygote at that moment is in every sense of the word, "alive." It is undergoing the necessary metabolic processes needed to sustain life.
• By removing the zygote or the cells that the zygote transforms into during embryonic growth, a human life is terminated.
I'm not sure I would disagree with any of this. This doesn't strike me as an argument against abortion though. If it's intended to be, I think we'd need to do significant work on what the phrase 'human life' amounts to.

For instance, in attempting to use a more comprehensible notion of 'human life', it seems to me 'human life' ought to be, at least partially, defined in terms of death. This is because death is the cessation of life, so if we get a handle on the medical definition of 'death', we can get a pretty good idea of what exactly is thought to be ceasing. But, obviously we couldn't include a zygote in there since even the outdated understanding of death as 'no heart beat' would exclude them.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old Mar 24, '12, 12:18 pm
ACCT ACCT is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2012
Posts: 541
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perplexity View Post
I'm not sure I would disagree with any of this. This doesn't strike me as an argument against abortion though. If it's intended to be, I think we'd need to do significant work on what the phrase 'human life' amounts to.

For instance, in attempting to use a more comprehensible notion of 'human life', it seems to me 'human life' ought to be, at least partially, defined in terms of death. This is because death is the cessation of life, so if we get a handle on the medical definition of 'death', we can get a pretty good idea of what exactly is thought to be ceasing. But, obviously we couldn't include a zygote in there since even the outdated understanding of death as 'no heart beat' would exclude them.
I do not know about you, but I started to exist about 9 months before I was born. I was not a possibility that “COULD become a child.” I was an actual child who had a body.

“Abortion is legalized murder.” “Life should be protected.” Abortion violates the most fundamental right, the right to life. We, as a nation, have yet to recognize that right. Just because the abortionists do not recognize the unborn as a person, does not lessen our obligation to speak out on behalf of the victims

Abortion is evil. It can never be justified. No circumstances can ever make it right. There are no compromises to abortion. The right to life is non negotiable. Nobody can practice abortion. It is the duty of the state to protect its citizens, even by force. We have the bible and 2000 years of the teaching of the Catholic Church to back us up. “You shall not kill” applies unequivocally to the unborn, without exceptions!

From one former zygote to another, have a great weekend!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old Mar 24, '12, 8:53 pm
timotheos timotheos is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2007
Posts: 937
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perplexity View Post
This doesn't strike me as an argument against abortion though. If it's intended to be, I think we'd need to do significant work on what the phrase 'human life' amounts to.

For instance, in attempting to use a more comprehensible notion of 'human life', it seems to me 'human life' ought to be, at least partially, defined in terms of death. This is because death is the cessation of life, so if we get a handle on the medical definition of 'death', we can get a pretty good idea of what exactly is thought to be ceasing. But, obviously we couldn't include a zygote in there since even the outdated understanding of death as 'no heart beat' would exclude them.
In academia and in the courts, there has been a strong move to separate "human being" from "human person". The implication is that legal protections apply only to human persons. And, according to some, you become a human person when you are capable of relationships.

OK, no wisecracks out there about your ex-girlfriends or boyfriends out there, either.
__________________
"Only he can believe who is willing to believe" - Fr. John Laux, M.A.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old Mar 25, '12, 1:31 am
Khalid's Avatar
Khalid Khalid is offline
Regular Member
Forum Supporter
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2011
Posts: 2,366
Religion: Orthodox w/ Reformed tendencies. Fides quaerens intellectum.
Send a message via Skype™ to Khalid
Default Re: My problem with abortion

It sounds like Perplexity (and maybe even the USSC) is barking up Doctor Professor Singer's Tree.
__________________
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - II Timothy 2:15

Above all things Truth beareth away the victory: ... great is Truth, mighty above all things. - III Esdras 3:12,4:41
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old Mar 25, '12, 1:49 am
Chochy Chochy is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 19, 2009
Posts: 146
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by timotheos View Post
Yes, it is an intrinsic attack on this basic human right, and if it applies to the unborn, it necessarily applies to everyone. Once the court decides not to recognize abortion as murder, it becomes arbitrary how it then chooses to limit the definition of murder --- a definition subject to convenience.

If one person can decide without consequence whether another human being may continue to exist, we then do not all live under the same transcendent set of rules, and justice is not possible. The court, the laws, and indeed the nation itself, lose the foundation upon which they were created. After thousands of years, it turns out we are no better off than Abel.
Dear Ones,

I saw a sign many, many years ago, along the side of a highway. It read, "Abortion and Euthanasia." "How safe are you?" I've never forgotten that sign.

Blessings - Chochy
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old Mar 28, '12, 10:34 am
remjsmom76 remjsmom76 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2008
Posts: 206
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: My problem with abortion

I agree with you...its murder...and the average woman finds out shes pregnant at around 7 weeks plus...which is around the time she realizes she has missed her cycle. So by then she is carrying a living being inside of her. How can our country say that it isn't murder when a woman kills her own child, yet will charge a murderer with double homicide if he/she kills a pregnant woman?! That's a double standard!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmondi View Post
I learned in science class that doctors can detect heart beats around 18 days after conception. Brain waves can be detected around 40 days. Abortions are performed on average between 7 and 11 weeks. Let's do some 1st grade math. 7 weeks = 49 days. If a heart beat, a sign of LIFE, can be heard around 18, and brain waves, the second sign of LIFE, around 40, doesn't that make abortion murder?

This troubles me, because in a world where we lose so many souls to abortion with so little guilt ( if any at all ) for this, people still deny it as murder. What is your opinion?
__________________
Priscilla
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old Mar 28, '12, 1:47 pm
libbybeth libbybeth is offline
New Member
Book Club Member
 
Join Date: April 15, 2008
Posts: 53
Religion: Catholic
Thumbs up Re: My problem with abortion

I have read these posts with interest. I can only speak from the English point of view. Unfortunately, English law has never classified the killing of an unborn baby as murder. English law states that murder is the "unlawful killing of a person in being...."; they state that "in being" means one who has been born; therefore it is never murder to kill an unborn child even if the courts believe it to be wrong.
A while ago, however, there was one case where a person who attacked a pregnant female and caused her unborn baby to die; the judges said that this would be grounds for a charge of manslaughter of the baby, although it did not apply in the particular case.
Lastly, a week or two ago, a couple of British medical "experts" recommended the killing of born babies who were defective, along the lines of the old Roman custom of exposure.
It seems to me that ordinary people will never feel that abortion is wrong so long as the law does not uphold the humanity and life of the unborn.
I believe that our efforts to change hearts and behaviour must start with an all out assault on the way our law is structured; at the same time, we need to pray and make reparation, and to take seriously the Church's mission to evangelise. Always speak up, and give some reason for opposition to abortion and stick to it, whether or not you have a lot of knowledge. Good luck!!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old Mar 28, '12, 3:17 pm
jschutzm jschutzm is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2009
Posts: 354
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmondi View Post
I learned in science class that doctors can detect heart beats around 18 days after conception. Brain waves can be detected around 40 days. Abortions are performed on average between 7 and 11 weeks. Let's do some 1st grade math. 7 weeks = 49 days. If a heart beat, a sign of LIFE, can be heard around 18, and brain waves, the second sign of LIFE, around 40, doesn't that make abortion murder?

This troubles me, because in a world where we lose so many souls to abortion with so little guilt ( if any at all ) for this, people still deny it as murder. What is your opinion?
Let me START by saying that I totally agree and am STRONGLY Pro-Life.

But let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

As our scientific knowledge has increased and proven that babies ARE human and alive.. Pro-Choice (pro-abortion) advocates have increasingly switched their arguments AWAY from the scientific and increasingly to the subjective.

MOST will not really talk about whether or not the baby is "human" because most realize NOW that it is...thanks to science.

Most will now talk about whether or not it is a "person" - because personhood is more subjective.
Is a developing baby at 42 weeks a 'person' or just human DNA with a heartbeat and lower brain functions? -- that's there question.

It use to be whether or not it was 'viable' or could live outside the mother. Now.. thanks to Science that argument also is slowly being eroded.

So the last bastion of Pro-Choicers are 2 things.

1) the completely philosophical principle that they are merely advocating 'choice' - pure and simple.. separate from any consequences, letting the individual make that determination (how could 'freedom' EVER be wrong...right?)

2) That although the developing babies are 'human' they aren't yet "persons" and murder only applies to killing a person and equal protection under the law only applies to 'persons' not 'humans'

#1 is actually the hardest to wrestle with them over..because they will continue to advocate that they, themselves aren't advocating abortion..just a simple idea that everyone makes decisions on their own.
___________________

But you are right... Science is actually on the side of Pro-Lifers and medical advances continue to erode their arguments and make them look more and more like monsters.

BUT.. most have convinced themselves that they are on the side of freedom.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old Mar 28, '12, 3:24 pm
John Q Sinner John Q Sinner is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2012
Posts: 114
Religion: √
Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazmat View Post
does a heartbeat and brain waves make something murder? we kill animals with those traits. to be fair, peta does call it murder--they get made fun of a lot.
According to the definition of murder the answer would be; yes.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics > Social Justice

Bookmarks

Tags
abortion, catholic, life, science

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8540Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: Kellyreneeomara
5198CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: James_OPL
4433Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3870SOLITUDE
Last by: tuscany
3837Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: RJB
3396Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: grateful_child
3300Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3231Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Rifester
3151For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: Kellyreneeomara



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 1:09 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.