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  #46  
Old Mar 31, '12, 12:15 am
Perplexity Perplexity is offline
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by prodigalson2011 View Post
Sorry if this has already been addressed; I'm still working my way through the thread.

But wouldn't the cessation of all metabolic processes be considered death? It seems so to me; Sorry if the comparison seems crass, but is that not how we determine whether those forms of life that do not have heartbeats (i.e. plants) are alive or not?
No, you're right. The cessation of all metabolic processes does constitute the cessation of 'life' in its broadest sense. But, if you say we shouldn't perform abortions because it take the fetuses 'life' in this sense, then we couldn't take the 'life' of anything that lives in this broadest of senses. Thus, we couldn't cut down trees for any number of our purposes. We couldn't harvest any fruits or vegetables etc. ad infinitum.

Further, this broad sense of life doesn't tell us anything distinctive about human life, which is what we're trying to understand.

Finally, doctors employ medical definitions of death which are very specific to humans. They need to for a number of reasons, just one of which is organ harvesting. The organs of a donar need to be acquired as fast as possible for the sake of those in desperate need. But, if doctors waited for all metabolic processes to cease, organ donation would be pointless.
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  #47  
Old Mar 31, '12, 1:22 am
Bulldog76center Bulldog76center is offline
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

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Originally Posted by Will B View Post
Our nation has been deceived.. According to Me, deception is the greatest sin of all...

Jesus said "If anyone cause one of these little ones to stumble and fall, it would be better for him to have a millstone tied around his neck and tossed into the sea.... " Well our nation has been deceived.. Our youth of today believe that human life begins well after birth. After all is some areas of the world, if a baby survives an abortion that baby must be left unattended so it can die.

In the late 50s and early 60s homosexual activity was considered a perversion.. Now it is accepted as an alternate life style.. Even the children in public schools are being taught that it OK for two men or two women to get married..

"We the People" have been deceived ... Who get to wear the millstone??
Amen .
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  #48  
Old Mar 31, '12, 3:18 pm
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

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Originally Posted by Viki63 View Post
I hope that works. But I suspect that pro-life strategy is geared toward emotional arguments because that is what moves most people. When people make a decision for an abortion they are acting out of fear, they are thinking that their lives are in jeopardy, and not considering the consequences for the unborn child at all. I remember how I used to think.
The way to approach this, in my opinion, is to allay those fears: to offer support and encouragement and protection to pregnant women, instead of isolating, threatening and punishing them which is basically what happens now.
I agree wholeheartedly and the stories which sometimes come out out Latin American countries (of which it is hard to get unbiased accounts) make me even more wary about this new, militant, legalistic approach to defending life.

Just recently I read of a woman in El Salvador jailed for having a miscarriage because it appeared that all was not 'normal' with the way she presented to hospital. Apparently, only after she developed overt signs of cancer in prison (where she reportedly died), did the realization arise that the 'suspicious' picture could simply have been due to her disease. How accurate this account is, I have no idea because the sites it appeared on were obviously pro-choice. (The case is supposedly being taken to some sort of international commission.)

I am not in favor of the 'big stick' approach, particularly because it is disproportionately oriented toward punishing poor, desperate women with weak social supports as opposed to the educated, well-off ones who have access to multiple 'options' and resources and for whom an unplanned pregnancy is simply an inconvenience.

Your comment on use of emotions make sense when dealing with women faced with an unplanned pregnancy. My ideas are more preventive in nature and would aim to capture the attention of young people for whom pregnancy is the furthest thing from their minds.

The problem with relying on emotion-based appeals for the general population, is that when faced with the real quandary of what to do about a pregnancy, those fears may overcome the emotions evoked by a pro-life ad. In my experience, values based on rational information stand stronger and last longer than those based simply on feelings.
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  #49  
Old Mar 31, '12, 11:24 pm
LostChemist LostChemist is offline
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by brumano View Post
We cannot judge the soul of anyone, except maybe our own but how is it that pro abortionists have seen themselves as fit to judge the unborn as being unworthy to have the life that was given to them, that they cannot only be judged but also executed without rationale and without compunction. The only persons the pro death contingent succeed in deceiving are themselves.
I agree that we shoudn't judge the souls for anyone but I also don't think that the "pro-abortionists" judge the soul of anyone in this situation either. They don't see that the fetus as unworthy. They haven't put a price on the fetus.

Also, I have seen much more judgement on the side of Christians that don't agree with a mothers decision to keep her child regardless of her reasons. It's not our job to push our brand of morality on others. It's even worse to think that the state should have the right to. What ever happened to leading by example? I'm personally sick of walking to my cafeteria and seeing pro-life groups standing outside holding signs that are meant to do nothing but shock and terrorize. Do I think that we should do nothing? Of course not. I'm of the opinion that the mother should be given all the options available and the FACTS and then allow her to make her own decision. Like I said in a previous post, I don't think that any mother took the decision lightly to abort.

Not that I want to debate this in this post right now, but I have known Catholics that say on one hand that abortion is an abomination while at the same time agreeing with state executions as a punishment. Shoudn't you be pro-life all the way?

Should we not be more caring and understanding of a person going through this kind of strife? Shouldn't we offer counsel, comfort, and company?
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  #50  
Old Apr 12, '12, 1:05 pm
brumano brumano is offline
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
With all due respect, you should stick to talking about things you know. There are several conditions which would place the lives of mother and baby at risk and make life-saving decisions necessary. Considered together, you can safely estimate that such decisions are being made on a daily basis (if not more often) somewhere in the US.

Calling people "abortion justifiers" is one thing. Making statements about the capabilities of modern medicine is quite another.
I just don't want to have it , I just don't want you to have it, abortion's just another kind of birth control, it's just a growth of some kind in the womb, it's just cheaper and easier for us to abort your baby than it is to have you give birth and help support you and the baby in the future, it's just that it comes down to a woman's freedom of choice being more important than the right of the baby to live, it's just that we don't want anything interfering with our sexual freedom, it's just, it's just, it's just. These aren't medical conditions, and everyone knows what they are.
Sure there are other conditions that carry elevated risks but you've really got alot of explaining to do to show me how an abortion maybe needed to save, the baby's life? (it's your own wording).
Gloat while you can I guess about how many are being killed somewhere in the US without anything near a medical reasoning being made or given; but remember when something like this happens to you or one your loved ones that it's just the way things happen to go.
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  #51  
Old Apr 17, '12, 11:37 am
vz71 vz71 is online now
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by LostChemist View Post
They haven't put a price on the fetus.
That is a statement of worth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LostChemist View Post
Also, I have seen much more judgement on the side of Christians that don't agree with a mothers decision to keep her child regardless of her reasons. It's not our job to push our brand of morality on others.
Pray tell what morality is pushed upon the unborn child?
surely the judgement of 'not worthy to live' is much harsher then any judgement you claim Christians have made upon the sins of another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LostChemist View Post
It's even worse to think that the state should have the right to. What ever happened to leading by example? I'm personally sick of walking to my cafeteria and seeing pro-life groups standing outside holding signs that are meant to do nothing but shock and terrorize.
I too have been on the fence concerning these types of signs.
I have often felt that all it does is cause scandal upon others and hurt the pro-life cause.
But I also recognize that the reality of abortion must be realized before people will do anything to stop it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LostChemist View Post
Do I think that we should do nothing? Of course not. I'm of the opinion that the mother should be given all the options available and the FACTS and then allow her to make her own decision.
Decision to what?
Take an innocent life?
Why should the mother be provided choices that I am not.
There are many people around me that I feel I would be better off without. Why shouldn't I be provided a safe, legal, and rare method of dispatching these annoyances?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LostChemist View Post
I don't think that any mother took the decision lightly to abort.
Irrelevent.
The law allows the choice, and does not take into account the reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LostChemist View Post
Not that I want to debate this in this post right now, but I have known Catholics that say on one hand that abortion is an abomination while at the same time agreeing with state executions as a punishment. Shoudn't you be pro-life all the way?
It is true that there is an inconsistancy to be perceived there.
But it would make more sense if we somehow could connect these unborn children with actual guilt in a crime.
So what crime have they committed that deserves death?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LostChemist View Post
Should we not be more caring and understanding of a person going through this kind of strife? Shouldn't we offer counsel, comfort, and company?
Yes, we should.
But we should not be enabling people to kill an innocent life.
It is a far better thing to find a solution that benefits all rather than a solution that kills one and wounds the other.
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  #52  
Old Apr 17, '12, 2:47 pm
JDFatalist JDFatalist is offline
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmondi View Post
I learned in science class that doctors can detect heart beats around 18 days after conception. Brain waves can be detected around 40 days. Abortions are performed on average between 7 and 11 weeks. Let's do some 1st grade math. 7 weeks = 49 days. If a heart beat, a sign of LIFE, can be heard around 18, and brain waves, the second sign of LIFE, around 40, doesn't that make abortion murder?

This troubles me, because in a world where we lose so many souls to abortion with so little guilt ( if any at all ) for this, people still deny it as murder. What is your opinion?
You are still equating what is qualified as a fetus to murder, regardless of the development of brain waves and heart beats. The issue for most is whether it is moral to abort the fetus, I'm sure you have killed many things with hearts and brainwaves, that doesn't make you a murderer.
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  #53  
Old Apr 17, '12, 4:16 pm
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by brumano View Post
I just don't want to have it , I just don't want you to have it, abortion's just another kind of birth control, it's just a growth of some kind in the womb, it's just cheaper and easier for us to abort your baby than it is to have you give birth and help support you and the baby in the future, it's just that it comes down to a woman's freedom of choice being more important than the right of the baby to live, it's just that we don't want anything interfering with our sexual freedom, it's just, it's just, it's just. These aren't medical conditions, and everyone knows what they are.
Sure there are other conditions that carry elevated risks but you've really got alot of explaining to do to show me how an abortion maybe needed to save, the baby's life? (it's your own wording).
Gloat while you can I guess about how many are being killed somewhere in the US without anything near a medical reasoning being made or given; but remember when something like this happens to you or one your loved ones that it's just the way things happen to go.
An indirect abortion may be needed to save the woman's life in cases where nothing medically can be done to save the baby. Those are common, everyday occurrences such as ectopic pregnancies or life-threatening miscarriage with a baby still alive.

I consider it an insult to accuse me of gloating, but I will overlook your obvious bias against me for...what reason again?
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  #54  
Old Apr 18, '12, 6:05 am
vz71 vz71 is online now
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

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Originally Posted by JDFatalist View Post
I'm sure you have killed many things with hearts and brainwaves, that doesn't make you a murderer.
It does if the 'thing' in question is human.
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  #55  
Old Apr 18, '12, 6:09 am
vz71 vz71 is online now
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
An indirect abortion may be needed to save the woman's life in cases where nothing medically can be done to save the baby.
In all cases that you describe, the procedure is not abortion.

The name of the procedure has to do with the primary purpose, not the secondary effects.

It is aggrevating to see people mixing definitions up.
It gives pro-death proponents plenty of wiggle room to claim medical necessity for murder.
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  #56  
Old Apr 18, '12, 8:27 am
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

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Originally Posted by vz71 View Post
In all cases that you describe, the procedure is not abortion.

The name of the procedure has to do with the primary purpose, not the secondary effects.

It is aggrevating to see people mixing definitions up.
It gives pro-death proponents plenty of wiggle room to claim medical necessity for murder.
It is aggravating to see people respond to posts without reading what the poster was originally responding to. Oh, and excuse me for using terminology accepted the world over - by science and the Church. The only ones I know of who reject such terminology are politicians looking to satisfy their electorate with promises of 'no-exceptions abortion'.
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  #57  
Old Apr 18, '12, 8:45 am
vz71 vz71 is online now
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
An indirect abortion may be needed...
So what exactly is this?
Perhaps you can clarify for us.
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  #58  
Old Apr 18, '12, 9:07 am
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

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Originally Posted by vz71 View Post
So what exactly is this?
Perhaps you can clarify for us.
What exactly is an "indirect abortion"? Just search CAF or Google (be sure to leave the quotes in place).
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  #59  
Old Apr 18, '12, 9:34 am
BobCatholic BobCatholic is offline
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmondi View Post
I learned in science class that doctors can detect heart beats around 18 days after conception. Brain waves can be detected around 40 days. Abortions are performed on average between 7 and 11 weeks. Let's do some 1st grade math. 7 weeks = 49 days. If a heart beat, a sign of LIFE, can be heard around 18, and brain waves, the second sign of LIFE, around 40, doesn't that make abortion murder?

This troubles me, because in a world where we lose so many souls to abortion with so little guilt ( if any at all ) for this, people still deny it as murder. What is your opinion?
You're right, science is on the side of the pro-lifers. That's why you will see the pro-aborts denying science.
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  #60  
Old Apr 18, '12, 9:37 am
vz71 vz71 is online now
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Default Re: My problem with abortion

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
What exactly is an "indirect abortion"? Just search CAF or Google (be sure to leave the quotes in place).
What is described does not involve the abortion the laws cover and has always been an option.

I am uncertain the point of arguing these when the law clearly does not outlaw them.
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